PvP Balance - A Modest Proposal

[shirtandpantsman]

changing how all talismans work because there's a few uber PKs out there in a few select farming spots (basically Destard is what everyone is bitching about) doesn't make sense, uber PKs will always find advantages

I don't think disabling talisman on pvp is as simple as yall think, every flagging scenario would have to be accounted for, unless you want stealth griefers following around PVMers attacking them from hiding just to disable their talisman to be a dick, and other scenarios like that

try the simple fix first!

1) get rid of armslore/spirit speak requirement for PVMers, give us back 100 skill points to defend ourselves from PKs with

2) slightly increase accuracy and speed for archery

3) tone down damage on purple pots slightly or remove alchemy requirement for bonus dmg

 

[K A Z]

changing how all talismans work because there's a few uber PKs out there in a few select farming spots (basically Destard is what everyone is bitching about) doesn't make sense, uber PKs will always find advantages

I don't think disabling talisman on pvp is as simple as yall think, every flagging scenario would have to be accounted for, unless you want stealth griefers following around PVMers attacking them from hiding just to disable their talisman to be a dick, and other scenarios like that

try the simple fix first!

1) get rid of armslore/spirit speak requirement for PVMers, give us back 100 skill points to defend ourselves from PKs with

2) slightly increase accuracy and speed for archery

3) tone down damage on purple pots slightly or remove alchemy requirement for bonus dmg

great ideas! While we are at it: we NEED to buff the poisoning skill, buff archery to where it is the only sane option left, add a special blow for Archery (I suggest moving shot) and change PK statloss to permadeath (account wide)

 

[toddyboi]

Lots of great ideas here but you forget you're dealing with someone who doesn't really care about balance. Look what happened to stun tamers, battle bards and a lj dmg increase with a armor nerf in one patch. Easy fixes to balance things out but it ends being dramatic changes or totally removed.

Future pvp prediction: wands will be totally removed and we're back 16months with people running forever and spell rails.

 

[shirtandpantsman]

great ideas! While we are at it: we NEED to buff the poisoning skill, buff archery to where it is the only sane option left, add a special blow for Archery (I suggest moving shot) and change PK statloss to permadeath (account wide)

and this is the typical UOF pvper response, you see mild changes that could slightly benefit people other than YOU so you use hyperbole to act like it's some craaaaazy whaaacky extreeeeme bad idea!

 

[Streets]

Lots of great ideas here but you forget you're dealing with someone who doesn't really care about balance. Look what happened to stun tamers, battle bards and a lj dmg increase with a armor nerf in one patch. Easy fixes to balance things out but it ends being dramatic changes or totally removed.

Future pvp prediction: wands will be totally removed and we're back 16months with people running forever and spell rails.

The problem is people will go to extreme measures to maximize an advantage over someone else. Suorisingly I am not agenst this at all really! Hell I want to do it as well when I am more established!

changing how all talismans work because there's a few uber PKs out there in a few select farming spots (basically Destard is what everyone is bitching about) doesn't make sense, uber PKs will always find advantages

I don't think disabling talisman on pvp is as simple as yall think, every flagging scenario would have to be accounted for, unless you want stealth griefers following around PVMers attacking them from hiding just to disable their talisman to be a dick, and other scenarios like that

try the simple fix first!

1) get rid of armslore/spirit speak requirement for PVMers, give us back 100 skill points to defend ourselves from PKs with

2) slightly increase accuracy and speed for archery

3) tone down damage on purple pots slightly or remove alchemy requirement for bonus dmg

Just to play devil's advocate a bit:

1) do you think pvm'ers would really is this 100 points to defend them self or would they put it into a skill that would allow them to farm more efficient?

2) do you think a speed accuracy would fix archery? (I'm sure people have seen me state my gripes about the skill) but could it be a different issue all together?

3) I am not sure if I understand. At first you suggest reducing damage the next you suggest letting everyone throw at Max damage without the skill?


I just want to point out I am not chalanging your opinion or saying it's right or wrong just digging deeper.

 

[Genocide Pete]

Lots of great ideas here but you forget you're dealing with someone who doesn't really care about balance. Look what happened to stun tamers, battle bards and a lj dmg increase with a armor nerf in one patch. Easy fixes to balance things out but it ends being dramatic changes or totally removed.

Future pvp prediction: wands will be totally removed and we're back 16months with people running forever and spell rails.

Yes, lumberjacks are really running the show now, aren't they? And yet I'm struggling to think of more than five names of lumberjack characters at all, let alone ones who are noteworthy. Hmm. Your gauge might be broken again, boy.

Let's be clear about one thing: this is not a modest proposal. It's not a modest amount of time, gold, or effort to max out a defense talisman and its relics. We should all fully acknowledge this as we're wading into this mess.

The "aggressor loses talisman powers" proposal is not a good one; players should never feel compelled to avoid initiating combat simply because they want their opponent's talisman to lose its effectiveness instead of their own.

We should avoid ideas that screw over players who have invested in the current system wherever possible. Are layered AR robes a problem? Don't delete or unlayer them, simply make only one +3/+5 bonus effective at a time. Are wands an issue because they further the gap between newbs and vets? Don't delete everyone's wands, make it easier for inexperienced players to take advantage of them (e.g., a [ghealwand command similar to [poppouch). If the talismans are truly such a big issue that they need to be changed, come up with a solution that minimizes the damage done to current talisman users.

 

[healmagePRO.]

Future pvp prediction: wands will be totally removed and we're back 16months with people running forever and spell rails.

shit stains like you already run forever, wands just mean you can get lucky with a lightning wand sync that's slightly more difficulty to heal

 

[shirtandpantsman]

The problem is people will go to extreme measures to maximize an advantage over someone else. Suorisingly I am not agenst this at all really! Hell I want to do it as well when I am more established!




Just to play devil's advocate a bit:

1) do you think pvm'ers would really is this 100 points to defend them self or would they put it into a skill that would allow them to farm more efficient?

2) do you think a speed accuracy would fix archery? (I'm sure people have seen me state my gripes about the skill) but could it be a different issue all together?

3) I am not sure if I understand. At first you suggest reducing damage the next you suggest letting everyone throw at Max damage without the skill?


I just want to point out I am not chalanging your opinion or saying it's right or wrong just digging deeper.

1) give a PVMer 100 skill points back and they could get a combination of 50/50 magery/hiding so they can cast reflects and protections and hide reasonably well while waiting in a spawn area or at an event or whatever. even if they used that 100 points on a different PVM skill, it still would be something more FUN and interesting unlike boring armslore that doesn't add anything to the actual game play

2) tweaking some existing values to increase archery accuracy/speed would be seemingly very easy to do and they could see how it goes afterwards, if everybody becomes an archer then the increase mightve been too much and then you can reduce it somewhere in the middle, but much easier to do than totally changing how archery works

3) if purple pots are the way of the game now, and everybody should use them, why bother wasting 100 points on alchemy? yet another boring skill to waste 100 points on just to get some extra damage out of potions. if potions did the same damage no matter who throws them they would be more balanced because it's a more level playing field when potions work the same way for everyone

I think more character diversity leads to more balanced pvp

 

[TyroneG]

Let's be clear about one thing: this is not a modest proposal. It's not a modest amount of time, gold, or effort to max out a defense talisman and its relics. We should all fully acknowledge this as we're wading into this mess.

The "aggressor loses talisman powers" proposal is not a good one; players should never feel compelled to avoid initiating combat simply because they want their opponent's talisman to lose its effectiveness instead of their own.

We should avoid ideas that screw over players who have invested in the current system wherever possible. Are layered AR robes a problem? Don't delete or unlayer them, simply make only one +3/+5 bonus effective at a time. Are wands an issue because they further the gap between newbs and vets? Don't delete everyone's wands, make it easier for inexperienced players to take advantage of them (e.g., a [ghealwand command similar to [poppouch). If the talismans are truly such a big issue that they need to be changed, come up with a solution that minimizes the damage done to current talisman users.

My issue is these were added under the premise that they would have no effect on PVP. Currently, whether intended or not, they do have an effect. I feel like this is more evident than ever when talking about red dexxers trolling dungeons to kill noob PVMers. Tamers are probably the most affected by this. While a tamer is busy fighting mobs PKs are already at a huge advantage due to the many other factors I mentioned above. Why give them the ability to ignore/reduce damage from their pets and/or practically ignore any mob in the dungeon while fighting players they clearly outclass? Removing them for 30 seconds during combat is not going to ruin them, screw over players who invested time, or make these players utterly useless.

Personally I would like for the solution to be talismans are deactivated any time a combat situation is initiated. Whether this be for the person attacking or defending. However a good alternative mentioned previously would be for them to be deactivated upon attacking or attacking back. Hell at this point I'd settle for just the attacker (although that would bring up this whole cat and mouse game of who is going to attack first, like you said).

Someone said something about requiring armslore. As far as I know armslore gives an added bonus and is not required. I'd be alright with players who have invested skillpoints into these non-PVP skills to keep their talismans in combat situations that they did not initiate.

Also like the [wand suggestions.

 

[StegcO]

Or we can do Talisman will be deactivated only for the attacker, so a red can farm with talisman on and/or scouting in the middle of dungeons/mobs but when he attack the talisman bonus turn off.

Basically we need to reduce the gap between pvpers, if we begin removing tali bonus and wands basically the gap will be tactics/skills of the human.

We only need to test/think if/how this can be exploited and solve the little problems.

 

[Streets]

We have a test server right I mean we could test multiple ideas just to see what happens without committing to anything?

 

[StegcO]

We have a test server right I mean we could test multiple ideas just to see what happens without committing to anything?

HHHHHMMMMMMM i dont know, removing Talisman no needs testing, simply remove Relics bonus in PvP, no needs to be tested; at least we need to remove MobAttackRedFirst if become to difficult to PK.

If we talk about changing Spells/Attack deley or WeaponsSpeed I agree with you, needs to be tested on test center with 100 duels.

If we talk about give a shake to an entire system, giving much confidence to n00b to go in the fields or protect theire champs it can not be test on test center, we need 3 months of regular server to see if something change.

 

[Streets]

HHHHHMMMMMMM i dont know, removing Talisman no needs testing, simply remove Relics bonus in PvP, no needs to be tested; at least we need to remove MobAttackRedFirst if become to difficult to PK.

If we talk about changing Spells/Attack deley or WeaponsSpeed I agree with you, needs to be tested on test center with 100 duels.

If we talk about give a shake to an entire system, giving much confidence to n00b to go in the fields or protect theire champs it can not be test on test center, we need 3 months of regular server to see if something change.

True but I can easily see a staff message "after further testing we are looking at other options" no harm no foul but yes it can't be a weekend test I agree no matter whatever if anything is looked into.

 

[Young Star]

Here is a wild idea about talisman PKs. Make it so red players are too currupt to equip a talisman. For blues, every count diminishes its effectiveness by 1/5th.

Talismans are PvM content. No reason a PK should be able to benefit from PvM content to kill players.

On the flip side I would rather eliminate the armslore/spiritspeak bonuses just become inherent to the talisman not tied to the skill. Yeah yeah they are not required but anyone who actually uses a meta dexer or mage will tell you that they are prettymuch a must have. When it comes to combat templates there shouldnt be skills that only benefit pvm or pvp. if it gives a bonus for killing stuff it should work for both to some degree, even if not equally.

 

[Genocide Pete]

My issue is these were added under the premise that they would have no effect on PVP. Currently, whether intended or not, they do have an effect. I feel like this is more evident than ever when talking about red dexxers trolling dungeons to kill noob PVMers. Tamers are probably the most affected by this. While a tamer is busy fighting mobs PKs are already at a huge advantage due to the many other factors I mentioned above. Why give them the ability to ignore/reduce damage from their pets and/or practically ignore any mob in the dungeon while fighting players they clearly outclass?

If PVP tamers weren't such a pain to deal with, I'd agree that talismans should probably be disabled in PVP (though not only for the aggressor and with some nuance) and that the problem is mainly tied to murderers preying on newbs. Fixing the murderer aspect is more or less simple, but tamers in PVP would also have to be addressed to make things balanced, and there doesn't seem to be a perfect solution. Unlike talismans, meta pets still retain their PVM ability and their boosted attributes (meta HP and 275 spider dexterity being some of the big ones). One obvious change is that slayers should work against meta pets as they do normal pets, but how do we address the other elements so that the nerf would be equitable?

Removing them for 30 seconds during combat is not going to ruin them, screw over players who invested time, or make these players utterly useless.

It would ruin them for people like me who got them purely for the PVP aspect. Yes, you can say that they weren't intended for PVP, but the fact is that they've been in their current state for a long time now. We should at least be allowed to sell our talismans if they're made useless to us.

 

[jkg8787]

Stay on topic noobs. This is why nothing ever gets changed. They just got bombarded with 18000 problems and potential resolutions from several different inputs and will barely even give it any of them a second thought. Disable meta talismans in pvp. Discuss the rest in other threads or areas. Otherwise eppy will say but 50 people ramble with different suggestions and nobody can even stay on topic as justification for not doing anything. On a side note, I agree about armor patch nonsense. Wands just need a delay for offensive wands after explo casted or removed all together. Increase stun CHANCE who gives a fuck about duration at this point I'd just love to stun somebody.

Im not against other ideas, but preferably would have preferred the topic stay limited to the original few ideas. But cant really control that.

I like your ideas though

 

[jkg8787]

Funny my thigh boots won't equip with my plate leggings

Put boots on first

 

[jkg8787]

Tbh i see shit like target closest spell ganks or 1 button wand syncs way more toxic than the shit newbs cry about here.

If staff gives into the baby tears of a few very bad players can they atleast remove the red aggro by mobs to even it up?

My tamer has no problem smoking talisman pks and i have 0 wrestle. I think some of you just need to learn the game before bringing your grey screen tears here.

It would be great if you actually addressed points made in the thread instead of inventing a strawman in your head to teardown.

Who are you even speaking about? I see everyone in here from established named PvPers to no-name PvMers. So WHO is your comment addressed to?

Because this type of comment is SPECIFICALLY what we do not want or need in this thread, and later gets used as justification by GMs to not even bother reading because a discussion post gets turned into an e-peen flame-bait thread.

 

[jkg8787]

If talis were going to be changed it should have been done a long time ago, like back when you could afk macro them and they were easier to obtain. To change them now, after many people have invested massive amounts of time and money into them based on what they currently do, just seems like a bait & switch.

Disagree. Talisman/Relic were never intended to give PvP bonus. That's what the crux of this thread is about. Removing PvP bonus gained thru talisman/relic.

Anyone with a previously levelled talisman would still be able to use it for its intended purpose after these changes.

About the only thing I think this argument would work for is for things STILL being discussed such as does talisman de-equip on any combat or only if the aggressor flags.

Seems like most agree that talisman bonuses shouldn't happen in PvP. Now were more at the fine-tuning stage and deciding over the exact mechanics of how this change would work.

 

[jkg8787]

than alot ppl payed to have the advantage it would not fair to take it away now.

its pretty easy if you dont want to have ppl advantage with defense tali stay in nocut.

I get your point but "just do PvP in a limited area where you're limited to the people who happen to already be in that area" doesn't seem like much of a compromise.