PvP Balance - A Modest Proposal
- Thread starter jkg8787
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StegcO
Grandmaster
Seems we are in stall.
We can't talk about Talisman, Wands, Stun and Skills separately becouse all of them are part of a greaters system; also we cant modify all of them in the same time: after the first change all others things will change importance and impact in the system.
We need to choose the most important feature to modify first and then we will see, then we will talk and modify the others things always in order of improtance.
We can't talk about Talisman, Wands, Stun and Skills separately becouse all of them are part of a greaters system; also we cant modify all of them in the same time: after the first change all others things will change importance and impact in the system.
We need to choose the most important feature to modify first and then we will see, then we will talk and modify the others things always in order of improtance.
If we have to start somewhere my opinion would be pass over all weapons. Determine why only certain weapons are used (example swords favor katanas) and balance them to their own weapon group, then balance all weapon groups to one another (for example why do people mostly pick swards and less pick archery)
If that's to big of a bite first start smaller but the foundation again why do people tend to go one handed vs 2 handed weapons and bring that into balance.
Once a foundation pass has been made you can build on the next layer. If your foundation is crooked your next layer starts off crooked.
Some of this maybe obvious why a 1 hander is more appealing than a 2 hander or why swords or fencing is favored over archery but maybe not?
This is just an opinion not a pointing of fingers of what to do just an opinion.
Young Star
Grandmaster
The issue with talismans effecting pvp that people upset about are with defense talisman's passive damage reduction against mobs and phase shift being used to evade or even catch up to opponents.
If there is a change implemented to deactivate the talisman I would hope that it does not mean the talisman is unequiped but rather just doesnt work until combat timer is done. The combat timer is 30 seconds. I dont think that would be a huge thing to deal with even with accidentally aggro'ing.
IMO though both are not a huge issue overall with pvp and skill gap between new players and vets. In most cases if all those things were eliminated the outcome of a fight wouldnt really change. UO has always had a big skill gap when it comes to pvp. Every good pvper has spent a lot of time eating dirt before they got good.
I think wand syncs create more of a skill gap than anything else right now. That being said it is still something that everyone is free to practice with thier group to do as well.
If there is a change implemented to deactivate the talisman I would hope that it does not mean the talisman is unequiped but rather just doesnt work until combat timer is done. The combat timer is 30 seconds. I dont think that would be a huge thing to deal with even with accidentally aggro'ing.
IMO though both are not a huge issue overall with pvp and skill gap between new players and vets. In most cases if all those things were eliminated the outcome of a fight wouldnt really change. UO has always had a big skill gap when it comes to pvp. Every good pvper has spent a lot of time eating dirt before they got good.
I think wand syncs create more of a skill gap than anything else right now. That being said it is still something that everyone is free to practice with thier group to do as well.
than alot ppl payed to have the advantage it would not fair to take it away now.
its pretty easy if you dont want to have ppl advantage with defense tali stay in nocut.
I do agree with alot if what you said but want to remind people that wands are faction only and do not effect all pvpers. If I'm farming in despise I'm not in a faction and I get attacked wands are not something I can even use.
Which begs the question and please forgive me not knowing this yet but... If you are in a faction and can use wands and attack a non faction player can you still use wands? Offensively or defensively, meaning can you use lightning wands on a non faction offensively? Can you use heal wands defensively?
Ok so there is still another I'm balance there then. A faction PK has healing pots, Band-Aids, heal spells AND wands to keep alive. That is alot of survival agenst a pvmer .
GoD PaRtiCal
Master
^^This is what I mean. Just deal with how the mechanics are and let it be - they are not bad mechanics. Regardless of what things are changed to in UO, people will always find some way to use it to an advantage -- its part of UO to do that.
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
This is one of the dumbest things I've heard yet.. Because people have spent the time to level up a talisman in order for the PvP advantages (when they weren't supposed to affect PvP), it'd be unfair to take it away now? It's unfair to have it in the first place, how do you want to correct that wrong?
And if you don't want people having the advantage stay in no cut? Ha! That's just as dumb. As a meta mage, who is farming in a dungeon, a defense tali PK chooses to jump me, when I run because of my gimped spirit speak template, the PK may catch aggro but it doesn't matter since they take no damage. If I stay in no cut, I'm not farming and making money - I don't PvM to PvP - I don't choose to have this disadvantage. The PK chooses the when/wear.
Point blank, the mechanic is broken, and a simple disabling of PvM talismans when you aggro would solve it all - and have it re-enable the PvM talisman when the aggro period is over.
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
That's the biggest complaint about faction wands - the advantage of an instant heal when attacked by non factionersl, especially as a red who suffers no real drawbacks (can even go in guarded towns).
Young Star
Grandmaster
Thats pretty much my feelings about it. If you dont like fighting people that have an advantage amongst monsters then dont engage them there. I am more or less willing to conceed to deactivating the effects for aggressors though if something must be done.
There are two parties that are asking for this change it seems. PvPer purists that get pissed when they see their opponent taking advantage of a pvm bonus to beat them or escape them. Then there are PvMers that see defi talisman wearing PKs that are barely effected by the mobs among them when killing PvMers. I sympathize with the pvmers reasons for wanting change moreso than the pvp purists. It takes pretty specific situations for the talismans to change the outcome of a fight and it doesnt take much negate the advantage by not letting your opponent dictate where you engage.
StegcO
Grandmaster
I think we need to think about what to do to give a shake to actual situation more than thinking what is universally good or wrong.
I mean, for example, wands are not universally wrong but actually only few user restock them and 99% of the blue n00bs don't use them that it means, good or wrong, wands create a gap between users and that n00b users will punch keyboard, die then quit or simply giving a fuck about pvp becouse they realyze (or wrongly think) they have no chance againt pro/vet.
Same story about who use Gold/Aggy weapons against Iron/Dull or NoTali vs lvl 10 FullRelic Tali, staff obviously can manage single case switching Tali from PK to Blue for the users that have 3 Red with maxed out tali.
I dream a server where PvM is grind/money/tali/relics/ecc but PvP is a bunch of reag for mage, a katana and a plate for dexxer and let's have fun
I mean, for example, wands are not universally wrong but actually only few user restock them and 99% of the blue n00bs don't use them that it means, good or wrong, wands create a gap between users and that n00b users will punch keyboard, die then quit or simply giving a fuck about pvp becouse they realyze (or wrongly think) they have no chance againt pro/vet.
Same story about who use Gold/Aggy weapons against Iron/Dull or NoTali vs lvl 10 FullRelic Tali, staff obviously can manage single case switching Tali from PK to Blue for the users that have 3 Red with maxed out tali.
I dream a server where PvM is grind/money/tali/relics/ecc but PvP is a bunch of reag for mage, a katana and a plate for dexxer and let's have fun
I'm just going to throw an idea out there to test the waters this is by no means a completed idea but more or less to test out if it's worth expanding on?...
What if there was a static battle ground? I do mean like a capture the flag area that happens once in a while but a dedicated land mass? If anyone ever played dark age of Camelot or guild wars 2 maybe familiar with real vs really areas.
Anyway the idea would be use existing land mass maybe t2a or possibly a part of another uo expansion land or even a blocked off part of said landmass. This battle ground has no beginning or end it's a constant tug of war.
Anyway the idea being purists can continue in the normal world, and people that want an enhanced PvP can do so in another area. Enchanced pvp can have a different ruleset hell add what ever you want there, special moves, wands another era ruleset if you wan as it won't effect normal gameplay as long as there are no item conflicts. You can also add unique features like (just an example) quests players could complete to spawn heros or champions for their faction. Maybe siege weapons. The point being is you can do things that would not disrupt normal gameplay.
This way you can still have wands but have them disabled in the current world.
I know @Shane is not big on wanting to spread players out but this maybe a consideration?
What if there was a static battle ground? I do mean like a capture the flag area that happens once in a while but a dedicated land mass? If anyone ever played dark age of Camelot or guild wars 2 maybe familiar with real vs really areas.
Anyway the idea would be use existing land mass maybe t2a or possibly a part of another uo expansion land or even a blocked off part of said landmass. This battle ground has no beginning or end it's a constant tug of war.
Anyway the idea being purists can continue in the normal world, and people that want an enhanced PvP can do so in another area. Enchanced pvp can have a different ruleset hell add what ever you want there, special moves, wands another era ruleset if you wan as it won't effect normal gameplay as long as there are no item conflicts. You can also add unique features like (just an example) quests players could complete to spawn heros or champions for their faction. Maybe siege weapons. The point being is you can do things that would not disrupt normal gameplay.
This way you can still have wands but have them disabled in the current world.
I know @Shane is not big on wanting to spread players out but this maybe a consideration?
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
It would never fly Streets - despite what people say, no one PvP's just for the sake of PvP - they only do it if/when there are pixels involved. They PvP when it's tied to PvM - when they can make a profit, when they have something to gain from it. People don't PvP just for the joy of PvP. You could set up that battleground, unless there were some sort of gains for people, it'd be dead in a month. Even factions, with their faction only item incentives, really doesn't fly because once people have had them, they no longer care..
Ultimately PvP is a part of the UO world, as such needs to be balanced there with PvM and their templates. IF PK'n is what constitutes PvP - then PvM'rs shouldn't have gimped templates in order to PvM - arms lore/spirit speak need to go away to start.
Ultimately PvP is a part of the UO world, as such needs to be balanced there with PvM and their templates. IF PK'n is what constitutes PvP - then PvM'rs shouldn't have gimped templates in order to PvM - arms lore/spirit speak need to go away to start.
StegcO
Grandmaster
Sincerly i play solo/group pvp only for fun, but at least ill be happy to see blues that start to protect champ ecc, main goal of UO is to have fun!!!
Little of column A little of column B for me. Honestly I am in a dungeon not even 5% of the time I'm playing UO. It's annoying when I do fight in a dungeon and fight someone running through firebreaths in destard like it's no big deal, then I get instakilled a second later? Maybe changing this (and fixing the gay ass preloaded firebreath so that it's randomized) would get more of these "PVP purists" into the dungeons.
I hope this is changed more so for the average Joe new player PVMing in the dungeon. Why should he be put at such a disadvantage when coming across a PK with a defense talisman with all their relics and firebreath immunity and a swamp dragon taking away 20% of damage from the mobs.
You say that it takes a pretty specific situation where the talismans change the outcome of a fight, but when fighting in a dungeon that chance is much higher. Also anytime the person being attacked has pets that chance is much higher. The PK is already at a HUGE advantage. They are completely geared, have their skills built around PVPing, and are probably a veteran of the game. Meanwhile the person being attacked normally has hardly any stock, has skills built around PVMing, and may either be new or maybe not even completely finished with their character yet. Why further this advantage with talismans and swamp dragons? Will it effect the outcome of the fight? Probably not. But why unlevel the playing field even further?
I understand your point and there and agree alot (while I am sure there maybe some exceptions to the rules) what if there was some sort of ecosystem to balance it out? For example:
Pvm'ers kill mobs for enhanced PvP loots such as wands other items that can be used in said battle grounds. The pvm community will sell these for profit to the pvp'ers.
In return pvpers could earn pixel shiny's in the battle grounds that the pvm'would desire allowing the pvp'ers to sell items they have no desire to keep.
I ask because on paper or in though may sound good but I would need opinions from other game play fields to input as well?
More interesting points. And I believe there is a lot of value in this. Yes pvm'ers make builds to farm pvpers build to kill. And it's ok if it happens to an extent.
So building in this specific situation we have a predetor and prey situation. In nature this is balanced with both parties evolving. Predetors get better tools to hunt (sharper teeth, better vision etc) while pre evolve tools to defend from such weapons (harder skin/shells, better visibility in the dark etc)
What it feels like your post is maybe there is either an I'm balance in preditor or prey playstyle or preditor (reds ability to kill) is advancing faster than prey (pvm'ers) ability to survive?
That is where a penelty system was supposed to help counter balance this some thought?
Oh and the argument that these can't be changed since people have invested a bunch of gold/time into them:
The talismans still work how they were designed. They were advertised to be a PVM only tool and have no effect on PVP - they should function as such. If you want to use your character to kill dragons and have an advantage that is what the talisman was made for. If you want it to kill noobs farming in the dungeon and take no damage from people's pets that is NOT what it is made for.
The same could have been said about layer stacking armored faction robes. I invested mills worth of robes/layering deeds and guess what I ended up with? 6 faction robes that had their layer properties deleted from them. Fixing unintended bugs, especially those that have an effect on PVP, should be done no matter what.
The talismans still work how they were designed. They were advertised to be a PVM only tool and have no effect on PVP - they should function as such. If you want to use your character to kill dragons and have an advantage that is what the talisman was made for. If you want it to kill noobs farming in the dungeon and take no damage from people's pets that is NOT what it is made for.
The same could have been said about layer stacking armored faction robes. I invested mills worth of robes/layering deeds and guess what I ended up with? 6 faction robes that had their layer properties deleted from them. Fixing unintended bugs, especially those that have an effect on PVP, should be done no matter what.