GM Hiding/Stealth Vs 0 Tracking

[KaganV]

Nothing needs to be changed with stealth...Not being able to wear armor while stealthing is risk enough. Tracking just shouldn't work with literal 0 skill...i don't care if they can track me at 3-5 tiles with 1.0 skill as long as they have a chance to fail rather than just use 0 tracking and get my trail from 8-10 tiles with no failure. 180 invested points of hiding/stealth should not be negated by 0 invested points.

This. Though I will say how stealth is set up is a lot easier than on other shards, but 0 skill shouldnt negate 200 points in a template(or 180). Someone could routinely use tracking to just stop most attempts on stealth, but I do find that most people don't really seem to use it unless they already know someone is around. I've also had people try to reveal me with magery and just utterly miss. But a tracking success + reveal =devastating. Especially since they can use a mount to overcome the distance necessary for someone with stealth to get away. I dont see why some basic points in tracking would super buff stealth as it is, wasnt it always like 20.1 or something anyhow? I would spend 10-20 points on getting practically the full intended use of the skill. It also devalues the use of tracking at a higher skill level, since you can use it defensively at such a low starting point. Its not a completely pointless skill to take(like begging or something) but it gets pretty close. If that means readjusting how stealth or any other skills work in relation then so be it, but I dont feel the spirit of UO is in getting a free skill to use(even without the full range which isn't necessary).

 

[wreckognize]

you get to take 2 more steps before each stealth check. As for armor, even with just a leather gorget on at GM stealth, there is a chance to fail/be revealed....

This is absolutely wrong. There are no stealth checks here, and you can certainly never fail stealthing at GM stealth with only a leather gorget equipped.

 

[wreckognize]

This. Though I will say how stealth is set up is a lot easier than on other shards, but 0 skill shouldnt negate 200 points in a template(or 180). Someone could routinely use tracking to just stop most attempts on stealth, but I do find that most people don't really seem to use it unless they already know someone is around. I've also had people try to reveal me with magery and just utterly miss. But a tracking success + reveal =devastating. Especially since they can use a mount to overcome the distance necessary for someone with stealth to get away. I dont see why some basic points in tracking would super buff stealth as it is, wasnt it always like 20.1 or something anyhow? I would spend 10-20 points on getting practically the full intended use of the skill. It also devalues the use of tracking at a higher skill level, since you can use it defensively at such a low starting point. Its not a completely pointless skill to take(like begging or something) but it gets pretty close. If that means readjusting how stealth or any other skills work in relation then so be it, but I dont feel the spirit of UO is in getting a free skill to use(even without the full range which isn't necessary).

holy wall bro, guys just needa play the shard a bit more before talking about balancing mechanics. please.

 

[Experience]

This is absolutely wrong. There are no stealth checks here, and you can certainly never fail stealthing at GM stealth with only a leather gorget equipped.

I've trained 3 chars with hiding/stealth...throw on 1 piece of leather and tell me you never fail to stealth..

 

[KaganV]

So balance = using a skill successfully when its 0 to counter someone who has 200 skill points in two skills? By all means if stealth has to be changed to compensate, go ahead. I'm not concerned with the AR factor as much myself, because someone who uses hiding/stealth has those as a defensive abilities, and you can still wear some armor already. I like being able to instantly stealth, or not have to re-apply stealth, but I can adjust to having a limit of steps or a timer between going from hiding to stealth. The way it is certainly buffs those skills alot compared to other servers with similar era simulation

 

[Kaliron Oceania]

This is absolutely wrong. There are no stealth checks here, and you can certainly never fail stealthing at GM stealth with only a leather gorget equipped.

What do you mean there are no stealth checks here? If you succeed the first stealth, as you walk it will do a stealth check every 10 steps.

 

[wreckognize]

yes ok stealth checks, not actual uses. I see now. Many apologies sire. Though i was able to wear 6 ar and never fail and that was studded female ranger armor. I think the stealth was around 96 to make that work, can't really remember. OF COURSE this was a while ago, but I haven't seen anything in the patch notes to say this has changed.

what makes it balanced imo is that you don't always track successfully at 0, giving a true stealther more than enough time to do their thing. Get in, get out. that's how it should work, not just be able to stand there with your hands in your pockets because of 200 skill points. also, theres a learning curve to consider when talking about how this is balanced.

In fact the ability to track successfully at 0 has been nerfed twice now in the past. I think the chance at 0 now is around 33% only, or so it seems.

 

[KaganV]

what makes it balanced imo is that you don't always track successfully at 0, giving a true stealther more than enough time to do their thing. Get in, get out. that's how it should work, not just be able to stand there with your hands in your pockets because of 200 skill points. also, theres a learning curve to consider when talking about how this is balanced.

In fact the ability to track successfully at 0 has been nerfed twice now in the past. I think the chance at 0 now is around 33% only, or so it seems.

Well thats understandable. I am a new player here, and relatively new to templates strongly dependent on stealth, but your post before really didn't add any context or point against what I said. It was just a one liner. I'll learn more as I progress and play, but I won't learn much from that one line will I? I'll learn much more from the post of yours I quoted. It just doesn't make that much sense to me how I can succeed more at tracking someone with atleast hiding when I have 0 skill in it, but then I can't DH them with 30 or so skill points. Took me a few tries to track the player, never even succeeded in DH(with much more attempts), so I just basically cut off the player so they'd walk over me and reveal themselves(and I could do this because I had 0 tracking). I understand that tracking with 0 is balanced with how hiding goes straight into stealth, how stealth is automatically rechecked, but to me the trend should be to make skills useful as you gain in them(and ingeneral). Not have them that useful from the get go against high leveled skills on other players, and that is why I said I'll deal with stealth getting debuffed in some manner to counter-balance. I'll deal, I've found it as a challenge when players revealed me. Made stealthing around much more fun for game play, as theres more risk to it. Even then I can generally still hide->stealth, recall, or other skill combos to make my template effective. You're right, there is a learning curve with discussions about balancing mechanics, but how am I supposed to get to that point without ever trying to formulate a point or argument? Kinda counter-intuitive, no?

As for the debuff on stealing in regards to stealing at champs, never even got there, and I thought that was a temporary fix to some players abusing mechanics.

 

[thestand]

You can run for your first couple of steps!

 

[Bunnky]

I would most certainly take a stealth fix (must activate skill, and count steps), over keeping tracking the way it is. It's an absolute garbage mechanic.

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[Darkarna]

I would most certainly take a stealth fix (must activate skill, and count steps), over keeping tracking the way it is. It's an absolute garbage mechanic.

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Forgive my disapproval here, but after a day using the old method of using stealth where you require to use the skill and have to keep an eye on on the steps taken, you would possibly remove stealth permanently. I used the old method of stealth for six years on another server and up until the main changes on OSI and to be honest, I used it pretty damn well if I say so myself, but as for what we have now compared to the original method the differences are leagues apart.

The main problem is how everything becomes a lot more long winded, things that took a minute before would increase to two minutes, stalking someone who is naturally paranoid is neigh on impossible to get close to, magic reveal completely negates the old stealth, the list goes on and on. Even if tracking was changed so to reveal a thief with 50 skill points you would need 50 tracking, a simple use of the reveal skill or the spell would again, make stealth useless. Rare hunting would also take a hit, rare hunters rely on the new type of stealth to traverse a dungeon or dangerous place, even stealth PK's rely on the unhindered use of stealth to murder/escape.

I can re-adjust to the old way if the need be but I ask you now, can you? If the change went in and you find that your skill has just become considerably reduced in effectiveness no amount of crying will change the fact that you have contributed in making stealth emergency use only.

Be careful what you wish for..

 

[Bunnky]

Forgive my disapproval here, but after a day using the old method of using stealth where you require to use the skill and have to keep an eye on on the steps taken, you would possibly remove stealth permanently. I used the old method of stealth for six years on another server and up until the main changes on OSI and to be honest, I used it pretty damn well if I say so myself, but as for what we have now compared to the original method the differences are leagues apart.

The main problem is how everything becomes a lot more long winded, things that took a minute before would increase to two minutes, stalking someone who is naturally paranoid is neigh on impossible to get close to, magic reveal completely negates the old stealth, the list goes on and on. Even if tracking was changed so to reveal a thief with 50 skill points you would need 50 tracking, a simple use of the reveal skill or the spell would again, make stealth useless. Rare hunting would also take a hit, rare hunters rely on the new type of stealth to traverse a dungeon or dangerous place, even stealth PK's rely on the unhindered use of stealth to murder/escape.

I can re-adjust to the old way if the need be but I ask you now, can you? If the change went in and you find that your skill has just become considerably reduced in effectiveness no amount of crying will change the fact that you have contributed in making stealth emergency use only.

Be careful what you wish for..

I was a lil tipsy last night and my post may have come off more negative than I wanted. Apologies.

With that said, UOF is the only uo server I've played with this stealth mechanic. Your absolutely right about stalking becoming harder, and reveal becoming way easy to find a stealther. Thing is (this is just me personally), I love the challenge in stalking successfully. I loved minding my steps. I loved anxiously waiting those last 2 seconds to activate stealth again while being chased and cornered. It gave alot more adrenaline filled fun playing a stealther. It made those successful stealth steals or kills more fun, for me. I don't feel I need to go into my experience stealthing over the years, but I will say that although the mechanic here is nice and convenient, it takes some flare away from the skill, and the player skill, which is then negated by tracking anyway. With the old system, truly good stealthers were known legends sometimes, and that just doesn't exist here.

Really though, for me, it's the idea of a 0 point skill overriding a gm, no, 2 gm skills. That just doesn't compute in my head. Some have mentioned reducing the tile range, which is a great idea if tracking at 0 skill is to be successful at all.

I think if you want to be the guy stealthing through a dungeon, than you should also put in the time and risk by counting steps. I never enjoyed the idea of stealthing through vast terrains without touching the skill. It just removes a certain aspect of player skill required to do so. Anybody can do it here. While that may be the intent of the devs, tracking is still absolutely OP. 8-10 (or whatever the huge range is) tiles at 0 skill? Even a brand new player to UO would raise a brow at realizing you can use a 0 skill so successfully.

If people want to track, they should be putting ATLEAST 50 skill points into it for it to work. Risk being taking the skill to find stealthers (reward). Not 20, cuz anyone can get a peace scroll for an extra free 20 points. I think if you want to track a stealther, you should have the required skillsets to do so. Period.

There's many ways to combat how it's all working now. Reduce the tracking range to 1-3 tiles, make stealth break after 50 (example) steps, require more skill checks from tracking to reveal higher skilled stealthers (0 skill tracking can't track 80+ stealth, but can find lower than 80), etc. I'm sure there's a way to satisfy everyone here without breaking all of it, but right now between hiding, stealthing, and tracking, tracking is way to overpowered at 0 skill compared to the mindless infinite stealth.

TLDR; Require higher tracking to track. Make players take a risk by investing in the skill, rather than giving everyone and [Youngs] the ability to easily find a veteran stealther.

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[Karl Sagan]

I think a good compromise would be:

tracking 0-25: arrow is on screen for 2 seconds
tracking 25-50: arrow is on screen for 5 seconds
tracking 50-75: 10 seconds
gm tracking: arrow works as it does now (stays on screen indefinitely)

That way people can still use tracking to see who is around, but stealthers still have a fighting chance to escape. As it is once you have them on tracking, there is almost no chance of escape.

 

[halygon]

I am of the opinion(and I've also voiced this to staff) that 0 tracking skill should mean no successful tracking... Period. There is not a valid argument for the current system other than "care bear".

In my opinion it should work just like any other skill. At lower levels you have a small "chance" to track with an arrow pointing at the target, but for most incidences, it should give a vague reference where the target is at OR not tell you at all because your tracking skill is too low. At GM tracking, your search range should be increased to the maximum of 18 tiles and failing or getting vague directions.

At this point, seeing how I am probably the only person on this shard with GM tracking (put it on the IDOC char before I knew the mechanics of this shard) -- I have the most to gain and be pissed about for this topic.

 

[Kaliron Oceania]

things that took a minute before would increase to two minutes, stalking someone who is naturally paranoid is neigh on impossible to get close to, magic reveal completely negates the old stealth, the list goes on and on. Even if tracking was changed so to reveal a thief with 50 skill points you would need 50 tracking, a simple use of the reveal skill or the spell would again, make stealth useless.

Magic reveal completely negates the old stealth as well as the new way, thats the point of the spell. Except now people know EXACTLY where you are. The old way if you seen someone stealthing, you had to cast reveal and take a chance that you've guessed their path and get a hit. Now you just hit your tracking macro and reveal straight on them. I used to start stealthing and double back on myself so they couldn't predict my path and hit me with a lucky stealth. As it is there is no point trying to stealth away you may as well mount up and run for it.

I don't understand your argument tho, You said 'Even if tracking was changed so to reveal a thief with 50 skill points you would need 50 tracking'. That's perfectly fair! 50 skill points in the 'anti-hiding' skill has negated 50 hiding! So how do you think its fair that 0 skill points can negate 200 skill points?

The only people the current system works for are dungeon chest pickers who want to crawl around a whole dungeon hidden without having to press more then one button.

I still cant get over the fact people are making out counting steps to be hard, It displays the counter in the corner of your screen! And yes like you i've also played many years on OSI as stealther.

 

[Darkarna]

Magic reveal completely negates the old stealth as well as the new way, thats the point of the spell. Except now people know EXACTLY where you are. The old way if you seen someone stealthing, you had to cast reveal and take a chance that you've guessed their path and get a hit. Now you just hit your tracking macro and reveal straight on them. I used to start stealthing and double back on myself so they couldn't predict my path and hit me with a lucky stealth. As it is there is no point trying to stealth away you may as well mount up and run for it.

I don't understand your argument tho, You said 'Even if tracking was changed so to reveal a thief with 50 skill points you would need 50 tracking'. That's perfectly fair! 50 skill points in the 'anti-hiding' skill has negated 50 hiding! So how do you think its fair that 0 skill points can negate 200 skill points?

The only people the current system works for are dungeon chest pickers who want to crawl around a whole dungeon hidden without having to press more then one button.

I still cant get over the fact people are making out counting steps to be hard, It displays the counter in the corner of your screen! And yes like you i've also played many years on OSI as stealther.

You don't understand my argument because you are *possibly* a player who uses stealth around towns and short hop locations where stealth is of limited importance, you also fail to understand the 'fact' that I have already said I can re-adjust to changes since the old way is how I learned stealth. Man, some people have tunnel vision when it comes to defending their objective and fail to read what is in front of them, the reason why I defend the way things are at the moment is simply because the current system is MORE than fair. Weighing up the pros and cons with both methods, it should be blatantly fecking obvious why it is fair. All this talk about "But but but, 200 skill points are lost to a 0 skilled skill" "Its unfair that someone with 0 *correction 20 skill* in tracking can track me" Yeah they can, but you can also stealth around the entire bloody map unnoticed without stopping for a cup of coffee.

If you change tracking so it requires a higher skill level, reds/blue PK's may potentially abuse the fuck out of it, tamers, bards, warriors alike will be under a constant state of paranoia, because its completely impossible to implement tracking into their already jammed skill list. If you can not shake off someone who has already tracked you, then perhaps implementing a little magery into your mix, IE the TELEPORT spell.

I will repeat again what I have already repeated once already :

I can re-adjust to the old way if the need be but I ask you now, can you? If the change went in and you find that your skill has just become considerably reduced in effectiveness no amount of crying will change the fact that you have contributed in making stealth emergency use only.

Be careful what you wish for..

 

[halygon]

If you change tracking so it requires a higher skill level, reds/blue PK's may potentially abuse the fuck out of it, tamers, bards, warriors alike will be under a constant state of paranoia, because its completely impossible to implement tracking into their already jammed skill list.

I know I don't need to remind you of this, but I will anyways...

Welcome to Ultima Online.

...not everyone should be able to do everything. If you are a paranoid type, you should have to have tracking to verify you are with who you think you are. If your skills are jam packed already, make room or too bad.

 

[Darkarna]

I know I don't need to remind you of this, but I will anyways...

Welcome to Ultima Online.

...not everyone should be able to do everything. If you are a paranoid type, you should have to have tracking to verify you are with who you think you are. If your skills are jam packed already, make room or too bad.

But still, at the moment things are working as intended so why bother changing them to create unbalance elsewhere?

 

[halygon]

But still, at the moment things are working as intended so why bother changing them to create unbalance elsewhere?

I am not suggesting any changes to stealth or hiding -- only tracking. Why should folks with zero skill do what my character can do with GM?

 

[Jakaro]

I think a good compromise would be:

tracking 0-25: arrow is on screen for 2 seconds
tracking 25-50: arrow is on screen for 5 seconds
tracking 50-75: 10 seconds
gm tracking: arrow works as it does now (stays on screen indefinitely)

That way people can still use tracking to see who is around, but stealthers still have a fighting chance to escape. As it is once you have them on tracking, there is almost no chance of escape.

This is actually quite a good idea.