Fix Spell Reflect and Going grey/criminal

[wreckognize]

There's really only one situation worth discussing in this argument in my opinion, and that's blue on blue pk'ing. Sure flagging effects reds and oranges too but the most glaring problem with these busted mechanics is when a blue player fails to commit a criminal act because his intent backfired on him. The attacker doesn't ever deserve a get out of jail free card.

ok, so lets talk about this situation which is the only one situation worth discussing in this argument, in your opinion

blue on blue pk
the blue doesn't turn criminal,
but instead he takes some damage, which is accompanied with stamina loss and the fact that now he has used maybe all of his mana on that attack...

my main problem with this is that the other person is blue, not red. Not a player killer. Not intended for use slaying people. If you wanna kill people then sometimes you gotta go red, at least you would still have the advantage since they're already weak across the board.

 

[wreckognize]

Also would like to point out that I believe staff has already contemplated this, and hence why we have the new dispel mechanic.

I also have access to the best house in the farms, this ''fix'' would only make reds like me more godly, constantly standing in brit killing newbies on my red. Lets face it, having reds killing and looting non factioner blues is what you don't want if you like population.

It's very unlikely that we will be seeing any changes in these mechanics and most of us should be applauding developers here for such ingenious mechanics.

 

[halygon]

Butttt to be fair @wreckognize you're kind of all over the place in this discussion. I like you so I'm not gonna ream you but you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot.

Your mincing of words has turned azrias statement into a strawman argument. Azria probably plays scribes what, 90+% of the time so I know he knows how the circles mechanism works better than just about anyone here.

Not to mention you've ping-ponged from every different possible criminal status/intention of both attacker and defender.

There's really only one situation worth discussing in this argument in my opinion, and that's blue on blue pk'ing. Sure flagging effects reds and oranges too but the most glaring problem with these busted mechanics is when a blue player fails to commit a criminal act because his intent backfired on him. The attacker doesn't ever deserve a get out of jail free card.

I really didn't like azrias fishing for PvP on a red in town argument either because I feel like that also misses the point. Sure in that case the red wouldn't get free reign to fight back against his attacker (which he should) but that situation only effects a small number of people a very small percentage of the time. Blue on blue flagging (or lack thereof) has the potential to effect almost all players almost all of the time.

Flames aside, as juicy as they are, the majority seems to agree shit is whack and I feel like there's no harm in tweaking the test server to see if we can get things working the way nature intended.

Blue on blue? Gettin a little kinky there?

I warned you to stop being so damn logical!

Let's see.. Azria 90% on scribe - what does it matter? He's in the pits fighting 5x. He doesn't even use inscription.

So.. Back to the blue on blue eh? Well IMHO, more pvp the better, since the majority of players are blue, some friction between blues by removing reflect sounds mighty nice, maybe they will even fight? Maybe for your sake.. In the mud?

To me it's little annoyances like this that make this game great. I can use this trick for good or bad or just plain piss people off. Whichever way it goes, it's still the player's choice. UO is all about players doing what they want. I mean really, that's the way Nature intended it for reals.

 

[limlight]

Ok simple argument for everyone. A thief attempts to steal and fails they should stay blue until they succeed in doing something negative to you. I think not. Biggest problem no. Worth a look as it may be a quick simple fix sure. In an infinite resource situation should this be fixed YES.
This makes the only question what would it take to fix not should it be fixed and for that a gm would be the authority.
You do a negative act you should be grey no matter the result.

Great point.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[wreckognize]

You do a negative act you should be grey no matter the result.

not exactly sure why you used stealing as an example; the one other offensive thing you can do to another player and then remain blue.

if you had a point, i missed it.

 

[Bromista]

O.k. guys, can we all just go back to bashing @Lord Hampton Royce again? I liked that. I loved that.

Haha but no srsly I just wanted to get back to the blue on blue discussion because that's where the issues of flagging are most glaring and pertinent to this discussion. Again, we all know this causes issues in more situations than just blue on blue but if we're gonna say 90% of players are PvE'rs let's get right to the meat and potatoes. If a blue attacks a red that's consensual PvP. Orange on orange, fantastic. You knew what you were getting into. Blue pk'ing is already rampant enough as it's let's not facilitate it further for the love of jeebus!

I know sometimes you gotta flag. Sometimes you gotta take that count. But other times someone dumps on you, has it blow up in his face, and you just gotta sit there and look at each other like idiots because you're in mixed company. I wholeheartedly disagree that the attacker should be allowed the opportunity to heal/pot up and try it again while you're on cooldown if you're not in the mood to flag.

Ah well. At least you can wipe your own reflect now so we're taking steps in the right direction. Gotta start somewhere eh?

 

[wreckognize]

your example is:
two blues are killing a dragon
one takes the others reflect
the other does not want to leave and lose the drop but also is not ''in the mood'' to fight for it.

to which i reply
this is not the world of warcraft.
it's balanced man just maybe sleep on it, mull it over

Personally, I play UO because on games like WoW, i can't murder people if i want them to go away.

UO is a full loot, pvp game. I would hate to see balanced mechanics get flushed down the toilet because any one person here is not ''in the mood'' to fight for every scrape of loot they have.

I wholeheartedly disagree that the attacker should be allowed the opportunity to heal/pot up and try it again while you're on cooldown if you're not in the mood to flag.

If you want to dominate the room you will need to use a red character.
If you do not want the attacker to heal then murder his ***** ass, plain and simple


your goal is still to dominate the room/loot and you want to be able to use a defensive technique (reflect) to accomplish this. Don't waste the 100 skillpoints on your blue. get provoke or animal taming instead.

 

[Bromista]

UO is also a game of consequences, is it not?

I'm not trying to dominate anything, just asking for consequences. Reds already have it easy here. Should we let noto pk's have it easy too? I think not. Granted this mechanic does not give any noto pk freedom to attack others with impunity any time they want, but it sure doesn't help matters. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree even though we both feel like we are making better points than the other.

I mean really this discussion can go in circles forever (see what I did there?)

 

[wreckognize]

UO is also a game of consequences, is it not?

I'm not trying to dominate anything, just asking for consequences.

Ahh, but you are, and there is!

Lowered hit points can literally lead to someones death
talk about lowered stamina and the fact that they might only have 25 mana in the first place.
Im thinking this person may actually be putting themselves at quite the disadvantage by taking your reflect, are they not? hehe

in the end, the most that OPs suggested fix hopes to accomplish may be a little less noto. (and a little more inflation)
Unfortunately, Im sure there would be alot more scribe reds banksitting totally dominating new players who wont see that shit coming.

Doesn't make the server look very pro when that happens.

 

[Bromista]

Yahhh you migt be right about that.

I suppose we shouldn't let reds in town but that's another story for another day.

But somehow your idea of an advantage and my idea aof an advantage are two totally different things. A flag-free dump, reflected or not, can only be percieved as a bad thing by someone who is less than familiar with the mechanics in question. And for someone who is familiar it's an annoyance at the very least.

I wanna harp on the giving counts to tamers bug that got fixed a while back. For anyone who understood what was going on it was a pretty simple fix: keep your pets off the guy who kept coming back to attack them and heal him up to keep him from giving counts. Yet the mechanics were changed and we didn't have to just "deal" with it any more. Which is good because that mechanic was not working in line with other similar actions, kinda like how the reflect thing isn't working in line with other flagging mechanics such as taking a swing and wiffing, attempting to steal and failing, heck I bet even failing to provoke a mob on someone still flags you. Wouldn't know cause I never fail but still. A flag is a flag is a flag.

This mechanic is silly because it's just silly.

 

[wreckognize]

lol i can just imagine
sitting in brit on my red scribe mage
waiting for some poor sucka to combo me while i got exp fs scroll waiting
BOOM BOOM ZAP WOOSH UGHHH

not overpowered at alllll no no
lol thread delivered tho
thanks posters for helping me feel better after some serious diarrhea today

 

[Bromista]

Haha thanks for keeping the boredom at bay while I'm on breaks at work.

 

[Nubby]

You can just as easily get hit with a few heavy xbow shots at brit bank on you red. It's not overpowered. It's 100 skill points and should function correctly. Having to only use scribe 100% of the time requires you to be red. While you had a ton of posts and trolled a lot your points were very weak and the consensus is still against you.

 

[halygon]

You can just as easily get hit with a few heavy xbow shots at brit bank on you red. It's not overpowered. It's 100 skill points and should function correctly. Having to only use scribe 100% of the time requires you to be red. While you had a ton of posts and trolled a lot your points were very weak and the consensus is still against you.

Woohoo! ..and we are off again...

Inscription is 100 points and functions perfectly fine as is. It allows me to make all the inscribe craftables I want and doubles my Reflect, RA, and protection AS EXPECTED.

Now, I have no clue what you mean by "having to use scribe 100% of the time requires you to be red" means. Are you trying to say that only a red can retaliate back if some annoying guy comes and knocks down your reflect without flagging? Seems a bit dense seeing how anyone can retaliate back if outside of guard zone. 1 Kill does not make you red, only grey. Also, how does this play out if the red is within guard zone? Does it magically give them more power because they are red? The fact of the matter is it is equal for everyone.

Does this thread actually have anything at all to do with inscription? No... so why bring it up at all as an arguing point? ....Grasping, huh?.. I understand now...

So I like your last point. It so eloquently displays the type of mentality a lot, and I mean a lot, of posters have within these forums. Do you seriously think that, because the majority of people IN THIS THREAD want to change X item (in this case Magic Reflect flagging), it is a valid argument for saying that the consensus of UO:F players want this also? Do you guys really like to assume this way? You know what they say about ASSuming.....

Regardless of Wreck's skills for LD debate, he still makes a much more valid point than the "consensus" of you guys. Magic Reflect is definitely not broke and should not be changed based on the irritations of some players. You know what? I bet if you took a consensus of the actual players within UOF, the majority of them would not even know what this topic is about -- BECAUSE IT IS THAT NICHE of a topic.

Again, good policy is not made upon the greatest good for the smallest amount of people.

 

[Nubby]

Now, I have no clue what you mean by "having to use scribe 100% of the time requires you to be red" means. Are you trying to say that only a red can retaliate back if some annoying guy comes and knocks down your reflect without flagging? Seems a bit dense seeing how anyone can retaliate back if outside of guard zone. 1 Kill does not make you red, only grey.

Yes. No one wants to have to take murder counts when someone "attacks" them first, whether it's reflected or not. No one cares you can make scrolls with inscription when your pvping, which is what this discussion is about, magic reflect being bugged (everyone in UOF uses magic reflect). It's only made worse when 100 of your skill points are useless in noto fighting, blue on blue, or grey/blue.

The only other alternative is to be red or join factions to make magic reflect a non-issue, both are two things that shouldn't be forced on player style.

If you attack everyone that casts on you only to be reflected you would rack up murder counts extremely fast. The intent of the character is to harm you with magic. Whether it succeeds, gets reflected, resisted is irrelevant. It's counter intuitive and you make 0 logical points why it should remain this way, other than adapt and overcome.

No, I don't want to take a murder count if someone is attacking me with magic
No, I don't want to wait for him to take down my reflect before engaging (what's the point then?)

1) Your main argument seems to be to protect the poor inncoent blues from exp ebolting themselves at Brit Bank.
- If you have the balls to attack a red in town, then you understand the consequences if you don't win

2) Your secondary argument is faction vs faction, where it's mage vs mage, and one mage wants to recall
-Does it get more niche than that?

Please let me know your other points. I don't want to keep spinning wheels here.

 

[wreckognize]

Yes. No one wants to have to take murder counts when someone "atacks" them first, whether it's reflected or not.

you can just leave, then come back later will full reflect.
You don't need to take any murder counts if you don't want.
it's designed to be a defensive technique only for blues.
make sense?

 

[Nubby]

Your logic is great. So if someone Parries my attack I shouldn't be attackable to them because it's a purely defensive skill?

No, you don't make sense. So now your only argument is that it's purely defensive (I guess you are the authority on that?) and the only way to use the skill is defensively if blue, and offensively if red.

Btw in UO offense/defense are one in the same. Trying to say a skill is for only defense is short-sighted.

 

[wreckognize]

My advice is, when notoing, try to only attract one player at a time.
keep him grey until you are blue then fight.
pretty simple man, then you don't need to try and fight 1v2 using reflect improperly anymore.
Seems like scribe reflect works wonders for notos, when they get sync'd they can flee taking no damage like you did at that idoc.

BTW i woulda wasted those guys on my red lol

 

[Nubby]

No one cares about your advice. This isn't an advice thread on how to survive a gank. It's simple; if someone casts on me, I should be able to cast/attack them back (retalliate) without taking a murder count, or have to wait for my reflect to be taken down to 0 (waste of 100 points for scribe).

"Try to attract one player at a time". LOL. Really grasping here. People roll in packs because it's an MMORPG.

What is your main argument that it should remain the way it is? It should only be used defensively by blues? Noted, now let others discuss if they want to. Your back and forth trolling is ridiculous.

 

[halygon]

No one cares you can make scrolls with inscription when your pvping, which is what this discussion is about, magic reflect being bugged (everyone in UOF uses magic reflect). It's only made worse when 100 of your skill points are useless in noto fighting, blue on blue, or grey/blue.

Hey, you brought up inscription, I am just pointing out what it does. It's not MY fault that you brought up something not relevant.

Man, I sure did miss the milestone that "noto fighting" became the biggest hit, because you sure are raving about it.

...runs around in circles....

Please stop, you are hurting my head.

No, I don't want to take a murder count if someone is attacking me with magic
No, I don't want to wait for him to take down my reflect before engaging (what's the point then?)

Don't take one then, its your choice.

Why are you waiting for them to take down your reflect in the first place? Seriously...

1) Your main argument seems to be to protect the poor inncoent blues from exp ebolting themselves at Brit Bank.
- If you have the balls to attack a red in town, then you understand the consequences if you don't win

2) Your secondary argument is faction vs faction, where it's mage vs mage, and one mage wants to recall
-Does it get more niche than that?

Are these my points? That's what you have gotten out of my numerous posts? Why do I care if innocent blues exp ebolt themselves at brit bank? If they are doing that, that's their own incompetence. If you attack a red in town then you SHOULD PAY THE CONSEQUENCES (if you don't win of course)

Point #2 - Again, that is SUPPOSED to be a singular incident. THAT WAS THE POINT OF IT. Here you go again:

"You are asking a game mechanic to be changed based on a singular type of situation. In other situations, what you are describing is a good thing. Think about it, for you -- the guy didn't flag and you couldn't attack, but what if they were trying to gank you and you were in factions ( I say factions because for some reason this shard allows you to recall if flagged otherwise)? If they flag on you, you can't recall. If their spells reflect and no flagging is done, then you can get away with a recall. That another specific circumstance, but just as valid an argument."

Also, who the hell said mage vs mage?