Fix Explosion Pots
- Thread starter wetbreasts
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wetbreasts
Novice
Yes i suggested the same thing about stealing. It would help greatly. I'd add a 2 second delay on snooping repeatedly as well, so they cant scope your bag too quickly. As for exp pots, who knows. Nerfing the damage, removing the heat seeking, increasing the delay between consecutive throws, etc would all help, but really the best thing to do is to remove them and let the metagame evolve and improve.
Experience
Grandmaster
Wasn't aware of this... i have honestly never used pots in pvp on this shard...only for testing and douchebaggery...
then maybe we should make it a bit like poisoning skill (chance for the potion to not explode or chance to miss) since we no longer have a chance to return the potion...
Kith kannen
Master
question...can you stun someone in the middle of throwing a pot ie dexxer para/stun punch...paralyze spell ?? and does it make the pot blow up on them ??
wetbreasts
Novice
The delay is small and inconsequential, and changes nothing about their potential for abuse. Yes that is a big issue. People often liken explosion pots to moving shot, but they forget that moving shot requires mana, and it also has both a 50% chance for the arrow to miss, as well as a chance for the moving shot itself to fail.
These explosion pots potentially have a 95%+ hit chance which is easily achieved by simple scripts, with no mana requirement, and no random chance for the exp pot to miss or fail. That is a big problem, because they are essentially all reward and no risk.
halygon
Grandmaster
No, paralyze and stun do not affect you throwing a pot. Nothing except out of range or no line of sight (LoS) will prevent an exp pot from being thrown.
But here's the cool thing, if you watch alchy duels, if a pot is being thrown, what do they do? They run it into their
enemy. If you stand beside your enemy when they throw the pot, it will hit them along with you.
So to throw potions you need two skills? Boy that would screw up 80% of the shard's templates.
wetbreasts
Novice
If people truly want this to be balanced, then perhaps these changes could help:
1. Remove the countdown and timing of exp pots, and make them chance based like the rest of the game.
2. Give them a chance to hit the target based on your alchemy vs their weapon skill. At 100/100 it will be 50%.
3. Give them a 4 second cooldown, which is i believe the default swing speed of regular bows.
4. Reduce the range of exp pots to 10 tiles.
5. Give them a mana or stamina requirement to make people use their brains and strategize, rather than mindlessly spam them until they run out.
and in addition to this change, i would add something like a 15%+ efficacy bonus to heal, cure, str, agil, so that that exp pots aren't the only incentive to have alchemy.
So with this change you would double click the pot and target a player, the pot would then fly to them with that same ~1 second animation delay, and have a chance to hit them. Now there is very little potential for abuse with scripts, and exp pots are brought in line with the rest of the game, ie they are chance based and open to further balance.
1. Remove the countdown and timing of exp pots, and make them chance based like the rest of the game.
2. Give them a chance to hit the target based on your alchemy vs their weapon skill. At 100/100 it will be 50%.
3. Give them a 4 second cooldown, which is i believe the default swing speed of regular bows.
4. Reduce the range of exp pots to 10 tiles.
5. Give them a mana or stamina requirement to make people use their brains and strategize, rather than mindlessly spam them until they run out.
and in addition to this change, i would add something like a 15%+ efficacy bonus to heal, cure, str, agil, so that that exp pots aren't the only incentive to have alchemy.
So with this change you would double click the pot and target a player, the pot would then fly to them with that same ~1 second animation delay, and have a chance to hit them. Now there is very little potential for abuse with scripts, and exp pots are brought in line with the rest of the game, ie they are chance based and open to further balance.
Kith kannen
Master
well that's nice that at least you have that option...but really no stun ??? If I time my Paralyze or whatever on you it should NOT be possible to continue throwing the potion that makes no sense in any way whatsoever..
halygon
Grandmaster
Wen you are "throwing" an exp potion, you are in reality drinking it and spiting a bomb on your enemy that explodes with a timer. The "consume" rules apply to exp pots as they apply to heal/cure/refresh potions. There is no limitation on them except for cool down timers (on some).
Kith kannen
Master
maybe it shouldnt just blow up on them but the pot should at least drop at their feet....If you got slammed in the Jaw hard enough to stun you you would not be able to throw a grenade if you already pulled the pin,,,
No just would need the throwing skill. Of course, if you desired the additional damage you could also use the alchemy skill. Similar to what an archer needs to do with tacts and anat for damage bonus.
I am curious though how you consider throwing a explode potion as just "drinking and spitting" . I would think it would be more of pulling a pin on a grenade and then tossing it.
halygon
Grandmaster
In the UO world, all potions are "Consumed". So to "Throw" an explosion potion, you first drink it, then it magically flies through the air and lands at your target to explode. Hey, I never said it makes any RL sense in this wizard game.
Super Trammie
Apprentice
If any of the random crap in this thread (for explosion potions) is implemented half the PvP population would be gone overnight.
This is what PvP has evolved into. If people feel the need to script to compete, good for them. Those of us who don't, generally end up winning anyway. All it does is bring more people into the field, which, I think everyone would agree, is a good thing.
If you want to compete, then script.
Don't want to script? Get better.
Don't want to get better? Don't PvP.
Don't want to PvP? Don't comment on it.
If people weren't so afraid of dying in a 17 year old game you might actually learn how to beat alchys.
This is what PvP has evolved into. If people feel the need to script to compete, good for them. Those of us who don't, generally end up winning anyway. All it does is bring more people into the field, which, I think everyone would agree, is a good thing.
If you want to compete, then script.
Don't want to script? Get better.
Don't want to get better? Don't PvP.
Don't want to PvP? Don't comment on it.
If people weren't so afraid of dying in a 17 year old game you might actually learn how to beat alchys.
Darkarna
Grandmaster
And this ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when someone abuses a third party program to the level it has been abused. Legitimate thieves may now experience a delay in their main skills because of the SKILL LESS, incompetent others who have not spent years fine tuning their class because they DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMPETE. You know, being a thief in Ultima Online is not just about stealing someones mandrake or bandages, the true thief has a wealth of knowledge about stealing and exploration, advanced knowledge on strategy and has one of the most charming personalities any game has ever seen.
Personally, there should be a much more steeper requirement to join the thieves guild from now on, the thieves guild-master should be moved to a random spot in the world with just a ten minute window to catch his/her attention, who then hands out a quest which requires the thief to steal a minimum of 20,000 gold pieces worth of stock from monsters, transferred to the thief guild-master who then rewards the thief with a disguise kit and a special insignia which needs to be kept in the thieves pack when stealing, not forgetting the ability to steal from players.
IF people are found to be using scripts to steal, they should be permanently kicked from the thieves guild, turned red and teleported to a raised podium at Britain bank and be freely attacked by anyone for all eternity. *They resurrect automatically after a few seconds so others can take their turn at destroying the trash that is stuck there*.
I do not deny that I am glad this issue was brought to the attention of the world, what I am disgruntled about is seeing my class changed COUNTLESS times over fifteen years I have been a thief. I do not think I have known a class to be changed so much in a game and you irrelevant idiots who have abused an already controversial third party program to cheat have once again, potentially imposed more sanctions to our class. I hope you bathe in fire for all eternity, I hope your genitals are are fed to sheep and I hope you become permanently violated by lizard men.
Personally, there should be a much more steeper requirement to join the thieves guild from now on, the thieves guild-master should be moved to a random spot in the world with just a ten minute window to catch his/her attention, who then hands out a quest which requires the thief to steal a minimum of 20,000 gold pieces worth of stock from monsters, transferred to the thief guild-master who then rewards the thief with a disguise kit and a special insignia which needs to be kept in the thieves pack when stealing, not forgetting the ability to steal from players.
IF people are found to be using scripts to steal, they should be permanently kicked from the thieves guild, turned red and teleported to a raised podium at Britain bank and be freely attacked by anyone for all eternity. *They resurrect automatically after a few seconds so others can take their turn at destroying the trash that is stuck there*.
I do not deny that I am glad this issue was brought to the attention of the world, what I am disgruntled about is seeing my class changed COUNTLESS times over fifteen years I have been a thief. I do not think I have known a class to be changed so much in a game and you irrelevant idiots who have abused an already controversial third party program to cheat have once again, potentially imposed more sanctions to our class. I hope you bathe in fire for all eternity, I hope your genitals are are fed to sheep and I hope you become permanently violated by lizard men.
Bromista
Grandmaster
I don't think #1 is the answer. I do like #'s 2, 3, 4, and 5 but not if they are all implemented simultaneously. A good balance can be found in some combination thereof.
Your mention of efficacy bonus to other pots is something I have mentioned in several other OP explo pot threads but has fallen on deaf ears because it would make too much sense.
Hanebu
Master
For me this whole thread looks like pushing all the eyes from the explo pots to the stealing script because PvP will affect more people.
Scripting is scripting. Either allow it for all kind of templates or for no one. I personally don't care if you use all those scripts. I got killed so many times by perfect pots und I got PS stolen too, within 0,5 seconds.
Thats UO, sometimes you loose and sometimes the other people are winning ;-)
I learnd from both situations. There are enough ways to secure you shit in your backpack, if I am not doing this and it gets stolen - my fault.
If I'm running from a PK and get killed by pots or other stuff - also my fault.
I could have been prepared better and train more PvP.
I always preferd Razor because I was used to it. Now I found steam, and especially for my crafter, restocking my vendor with armor and daily stuff is soo much easier.
We live in 2014 not in 1998 and if you can improve some of the old ways to get your stuff done, its ok for me. Everyone has the chance to do this.
Just my two cents
Scripting is scripting. Either allow it for all kind of templates or for no one. I personally don't care if you use all those scripts. I got killed so many times by perfect pots und I got PS stolen too, within 0,5 seconds.
Thats UO, sometimes you loose and sometimes the other people are winning ;-)
I learnd from both situations. There are enough ways to secure you shit in your backpack, if I am not doing this and it gets stolen - my fault.
If I'm running from a PK and get killed by pots or other stuff - also my fault.
I could have been prepared better and train more PvP.
I always preferd Razor because I was used to it. Now I found steam, and especially for my crafter, restocking my vendor with armor and daily stuff is soo much easier.
We live in 2014 not in 1998 and if you can improve some of the old ways to get your stuff done, its ok for me. Everyone has the chance to do this.
Just my two cents
Bromista
Grandmaster
The further this thread goes the more sensible the input, which is a refreshing change of pace from the norm.
These assistant programs are invaluable to make a dated game relevant and not mind-numbingly tedious which is a MUST for todays ADHD societies.
So the best case scenario is to nerf the mechanics involved in the two most heavily abused playstyles effected by the nature of our assistant programs. That way we get to have it all, combatable scripting...so that even if you're a gimp ass motherfucker who must rely heavily on a crutch you still have to use your brain and not just a few simple keystrokes to get the job done.
Stealing needs one of the following:
Cooldown for USING the steal skill, starting not based on the initiation of attempt but rather the pass/fail.
Forced manual targeting of item being stolen.
Nerfs to hiding/stealth (tweaked range checks or something in conjunction with stealing cooldown...basically force thieves to be exposed for X time before being able to stealth away)
That's about all I can see for reasonably keeping thieves in check. The rest is on the player to protect themselves.
Pots:
Increased delay between pot attempts.
Increased delay for each pot timer.
Shorter range.
Nerf to ALL pots that require GM alchy to get full effect, including explo pot dmg (maybe capped at 15-18 dmg?)
Stam requirement to throw pots.
Weapon skill of target factoring into a defense/deflext chance.
Pick andchoose out of those suggestions and you don't need to touch a thing re: assistant programs.
Just sayin'.
These assistant programs are invaluable to make a dated game relevant and not mind-numbingly tedious which is a MUST for todays ADHD societies.
So the best case scenario is to nerf the mechanics involved in the two most heavily abused playstyles effected by the nature of our assistant programs. That way we get to have it all, combatable scripting...so that even if you're a gimp ass motherfucker who must rely heavily on a crutch you still have to use your brain and not just a few simple keystrokes to get the job done.
Stealing needs one of the following:
Cooldown for USING the steal skill, starting not based on the initiation of attempt but rather the pass/fail.
Forced manual targeting of item being stolen.
Nerfs to hiding/stealth (tweaked range checks or something in conjunction with stealing cooldown...basically force thieves to be exposed for X time before being able to stealth away)
That's about all I can see for reasonably keeping thieves in check. The rest is on the player to protect themselves.
Pots:
Increased delay between pot attempts.
Increased delay for each pot timer.
Shorter range.
Nerf to ALL pots that require GM alchy to get full effect, including explo pot dmg (maybe capped at 15-18 dmg?)
Stam requirement to throw pots.
Weapon skill of target factoring into a defense/deflext chance.
Pick andchoose out of those suggestions and you don't need to touch a thing re: assistant programs.
Just sayin'.
S
Shane
Guest
We will look into this deeply of course.
I'm aware this could of been an issue very quickly. It really wasn't as much, until we enabled the ability to wield a two handed weapon, and throw pots at the same time. While i think this can be an extremely fun template to play, it can also be sort of OP against those who don't have the few templates that can fight against this.
I think a major problem is, before the ability to throw pots while equipped with say a war hammer, you had to unequip that hammer. A common defence against alchemists was to run up next to them as their pot explodes, so even if they hit you dead on, they still do self damage equal to your damage- balancing that out. It's a risk. However if they have a war hammer equipped, you cannot run up next to them to defend against that potion. It explodes on both of you, yes, but you also could take a crushing blow as well, which is a Risk x2 for you. IT doesn't balance out.
We will look at this, as well as look at many different ways to attempt to remove any sort of SCANJOURNAL attempt for potions, which would disable automated throwing.
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I'm aware this could of been an issue very quickly. It really wasn't as much, until we enabled the ability to wield a two handed weapon, and throw pots at the same time. While i think this can be an extremely fun template to play, it can also be sort of OP against those who don't have the few templates that can fight against this.
I think a major problem is, before the ability to throw pots while equipped with say a war hammer, you had to unequip that hammer. A common defence against alchemists was to run up next to them as their pot explodes, so even if they hit you dead on, they still do self damage equal to your damage- balancing that out. It's a risk. However if they have a war hammer equipped, you cannot run up next to them to defend against that potion. It explodes on both of you, yes, but you also could take a crushing blow as well, which is a Risk x2 for you. IT doesn't balance out.
We will look at this, as well as look at many different ways to attempt to remove any sort of SCANJOURNAL attempt for potions, which would disable automated throwing.
LOCKED
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