Fix Archer or make pots unthrowable while moving.

[jkg8787]

Skill points are a reflection of an opinion not fact. People think a lot of dumb things about skill points -- "if i pvp I have to have gm resist" or "Poisoning is not useful above 70" -- Same thing applies here. If your character had nothing but 300 skill points and in one character you put Anat/Tact/Swords vs another with Anat/Tact/Archery - they would both be equally good in different situations. The arguement above is that that is not true because it is being based upon other outside influences that form a bias such as preferred gameplay styles and lack of knowledge.

The core argument of this thread is that it is unfair that non-archer melee types can throw pots with 2h weapons equipped. The basis of proof is that not many archer characters are seen in the wild. Truth is, archery is and has never been designed to be an agressive pvp skill alone. It has almost always been accompanied by magery to fill in for it's weaknesses for direct pvp. Archery is a skill focused on safe long range attacks -- this presents a different gameplay style than what is most prevalent in pvp as that "Safe" factor doesn't balance well against "unsafe" melee weapons who typically have a dps advantage because they take a risk to be close up.

When you take away the need for an archer to need magery for DPS (ie give the ability to throw pots), you have negated the weakness of archery and unbalanced the mechanics.

Ok. I probably don't disagree with anything here. I'm sure I'm guilty of similar things, but I really just take issue with your wording. It took you 3 paragraphs to more accurately describe what you meant. And in doing that I agree. But the original statement (to me) was pretty ambiguous. Skill point totals/skill cap etc play heavily into template choice/playstyle blah blah blah. Your 1 sentence statement doesn't do your full thought process justice.

Just a nitpick from me. Carry on.

 

[jkg8787]

He is claiming archery is weak in pvp without any evidence or knowledge to back that claim up.

I simply posted a random vid of archery pvp to have some actual substance in the discussion, his response is saying that it is about as usefull as begging and he couldn't get past the 2 min mark because his eyes are bleeding... sorry but at the point we are looking at it from such different perspectives that i feel it would be a waste of both parties time to further go in to details as was promptly demonstrated by the OP.

He then butchers a quote from jamiez, the person in charge of pvp balance, trying to make it look like he is making archery out to be a mere annoyance.

@shirtandpantsman i felt the OP is being dishonest and did not want to waste my time going in to details with him. I am normally very willing to help people with pvp stuff.

Fair enough. And now I get the second point. Was misreading and thought it was in reference to me.

Agree with pretty much everything here as well.

Again no one owes anyone anything and attitude counts for a lot. Streets was very sarcastic and tends to make a lot of balance related posts that I imagine some find quite disagreeable so I can see where the lack of motivation to possibly explain your thoughts come in.

Only thing I can say (and this especially counts for me too) is that people tend to act wildly different in a forum discussion than they would offline. It seems to start from a level of perceived hostility on the outset and then just devolve into a worse scenario. Sometimes its better to either just say nothing or to take the high road and maybe still make your comments but address them towards other viewers/readers and not necessarily the person you're directly talking to.

(again this is probably advice i should take for myself before dishing to others lol)

 

[Streets]

But I thought the weakness was it's slow swing speed, or you can't move and shoot, or you had no special moves (stun, Stam drains, etc) or that you had a lower hit chance, or you needed a resource (arrows) or the low damage on armored targets, or the lack of choice for weapons (only 3), or the lack you could poison the weapon, or you couldn't drink health pots with the weapon equiped or any pots for that matter? Or.... See what I'm getting at? At what point does the the skill get cleaned of the sins of being able to shoot at range?

How can you not look at the skill point envestment and not base some equality? How do you determine racisim? You determine racisim.... you look ay the treatment of one race received compared to another. How do you determine age discrimination... You compare how one age group is treated compared to another age group. We are looking at 2 skill sets that are not treated the same here you have to compare the 2 to see what differences there are though. Swards, fencing, mace and archery are all in the sake catagory they should be somewhat comparable. The fact archers dump 300 skill points (almost half of their allotted amount) to see a player do things they can not do for not spending a single point, or to see multiple drawbacks for one reason is absurd! But then you tell the players with that same drawback ... "Oh yeah that thing everyone can do for 0 skill points... Yea you can't do that though" is mind blowing.

I'm not saying archery should hit like an atomic bomb but let's be realistic they gave something to everyone something they should have never had (throwing pots with 2 handers) to begin with which is throwing archery out of wack even farther. If you want to be era correct make pots era correct allow archery to fire in the move I distinctively remember being able to do that on production servers.

 

[Shenanigans]

I killed a guy using only archery yesterday.

.. put an arrow in a Legendary Tinker trapped box and left it outside the Vesper bank !

HAHA. There you all go, Tension Relieved !!!

 

[drasked]

 

[Streets]

He is claiming archery is weak in pvp without any evidence or knowledge to back that claim up.

I simply posted a random vid of archery pvp to have some actual substance in the discussion, his response is saying that it is about as usefull as begging and he couldn't get past the 2 min mark because his eyes are bleeding... sorry but at the point we are looking at it from such different perspectives that i feel it would be a waste of both parties time to further go in to details as was promptly demonstrated by the OP.

He then butchers a quote from jamiez, the person in charge of pvp balance, trying to make it look like he is making archery out to be a mere annoyance.

@shirtandpantsman i felt the OP is being dishonest and did not want to waste my time going in to details with him. I am normally very willing to help people with pvp stuff.

How did I butcher the quote? Verbatim a copy and paste of his whole comment. anyone can read it in the videos comment section says (exact copy and paste below)


"+HELLO HI That template excels at group PVP because most of my damage is coming from mage spells. The archery damage is just to be annoying and to make enemies have to heal themselves. I base my stat decisions more about how much int I think I need, and less so around how much dex I need."


Am I reading it wrong? Does "the damage from archery is just to be annoying" mean something else in other areas of the world?

 

[jkg8787]

Trying to sort of sum up relevant parts of thread:

Archery is probably the weakest of weapon skills for several reasons.
Archery is still viable in PvM and PvP.
Archery cannot be used with Purple Potions while equipped as opposed to other weapon skills.
This is/was a balance decision.
Reversing this decision could potentially have too large of an impact and instead of bringing archery in line with other skills could actually make it more powerful which comes with its own issues that have to be looked at now.

Really I suppose it just comes down to the difference in range vs true melee combat and whether you personally think that is a significant enough difference to warrant "gimping" Archery.

 

[healmagePRO.]

@Staff Why is this streets guy still on the forums when he just brings up controversial topics and provokes everybody into arguing for hours?

 

[baseball dad]

@Staff Why is this streets guy still on the forums when he just brings up controversial topics and provokes everybody into arguing for hours?

I'm actually glad @Streets made this thread.

It's so absurd that it brings greater light to just how no one (from young players to staff) should listen to anything he posts.

It's so bad it could almost be considered trolling.

 

[jkg8787]

i dont mind his posts, but there is a lot.

i do think he has a bit of a tendency to ask for changes, receive replies telling him why the changed would be bad or not work and then he kinda seems to either move topic or just steamroll onwards.

like in this thread I feel like he asked a question, got a decent amount of replies in good faith that essentially say "the change was made for balance reasons. You cannot directly compare a true melee skill vs a distance attack skill and have those ever be truly equal. theyre in a decent spot now lets just leave it that way.

and then he gets side tracked by something else and basically just goes back to square one so that on page 5 he's essentially calling the "problem" broken again and asking it to be fixed

 

[Streets]

Lol @ I'm the one trolling! That's rich

 

[Streets]

i dont mind his posts, but there is a lot.

i do think he has a bit of a tendency to ask for changes, receive replies telling him why the changed would be bad or not work and then he kinda seems to either move topic or just steamroll onwards.

like in this thread I feel like he asked a question, got a decent amount of replies in good faith that essentially say "the change was made for balance reasons. You cannot directly compare a true melee skill vs a distance attack skill and have those ever be truly equal. theyre in a decent spot now lets just leave it that way.

and then he gets side tracked by something else and basically just goes back to square one so that on page 5 he's essentially calling the "problem" broken again and asking it to be fixed

Ok look if you can't compare ranged to melee the topic of this thread was comparing ranged to ranged.

 

[Streets]

@Staff Why is this streets guy still on the forums when he just brings up controversial topics and provokes everybody into arguing for hours?

Cause that what a forum is for. You don't run the place quit trying to control a mmo you can't do it you do not speak for everyone and your toxic behavior is more likely to drive players away than my questioning .

 

[jkg8787]

Ok look if you can't compare ranged to melee the topic of this thread was comparing ranged to ranged.

I thought it was more about asking for archers to be able to use explodes without de-equip (which the answer why not is given, up to you to take it or leave it or argue against it) because other 2handers are able to. I do admit that I appear to have overlooked the "or not throwable when moving" aspect, but I think most of the thread never touched on that. Like at all. So the reason I brought up melee is only because THAT IS THE REASON. Yes they are weapon skills but there are two subcategories.

Wasn't meant to attack you. Though it probably did. Just giving my opinion. I feel like you have a lot of balance ideas and game changing ideas. I don't mind that, but I feel like average UO player these days has an idea what they want and aren't willing to move much either way. There's a reason this particular era of Renaissance is still most popular after 20 years. There is however a bit of a subquestion about: "What is renaissance era mechanics" as that era probably actually constituted maybe close to 2 years of UO and therefore lots of different patches.

"What IS UO:Renaissance era gameplay?" Well certainly not what you're playing now. But it's pretty damn close to what I remember.

Anyways I digress. I just meant to say a lot of people like me play UO for specific things. So all these changes suggested are baffling to us.

Not even like a skill thing. More of a mindset thing.

I do like your questions though. Even if they drive people crazy. You are a Socratic little devil and I like what you inspire people to write, even if I pretty much hate all your pvp ideas

 

[Streets]

shortened

You don't have to agree with me that's the best part! And I did not take offense @jkg8787 as with the few conversations we where a part of even if we disagree it has been an adult conversation. Yeah things may get heated as people tend to get combative over things they are passionate about but you don't stoop to the troll level or result to outright bashing so to me your opinion holds more weight.

I don't Intend to drive people crazy but every post I encourage genuine input and I try to counter point. I'm a grown ass man I'm not looking for a popularity contest and I will sleep just fine if some someone I don't know does not like me lol so that doesn't not even cross my mind. What does frustrate me is the toxic behavior this shard still has. It was here before I took my break and it is still here. Nothing good comes of it.

I won't name any names but I have looked at a few profile pages of users I thought where quite toxic and sure enough the entire history is lined up with toxic comments putting others down, it's like an abusive relationship on this forum. Constant attempts to put down someone that does not agree to what they say while trying to get others to agree if that fails they just name call.

Try it for your self find a troll click the recent activity sit back and feel better about yourself lol

 

[jkg8787]

the forums are quite dead sadly (imo)

ive found discord to be better in all aspects. trade/real estate/callouts for champs/pks/events etc etc. bit (ok lots) of drama but basically just get told to take it to PMs lol.

i dont see too much good convo on here lately but the forums are a wealth of knowledge. just a shame youre better off using the search function than actually making MORE posts.

anyways changes suck. must stuff is good. you ask way to much. which to you is probably just more to make convo and some serious other things more like suggestions. but like i was saying earlier online the worst assumptions are assumed and you become a troll who whines all day about balance instead of just a guy making posts.

oh well.

but i do think like all humans you have a bit of a penchant for doubling down instead of being accepting over others. MYSELF INCLUDED. no doubt. everyone does. i think thats honestly what can be off-putting about you. to see multiple 10page threads where you probably just feel like youre posting normally and defending your point while every UO vet is thinking IS THIS GUY TROLLING CAUSE IM DOING MY BEST TO INSULT HIM AND HES NOT LISTENING.

thats an issue, lotta good advice being shouted at you. but its being shouted rudely. haha so i can also see how thats not good either

ANYWAYS IMMA END THIS RANT

 

[shirtandpantsman]

I got banned from discord for saying "jerk off" so the forums are all I have now. So I appreciate this lively archery conversation, as I've started probably a dozen "archery is gimped" threads myself

I think if staff just slightly tweaked archery to increase accuracy in both pvp and pvm, and make them shoot slightly faster it would make a huge difference and easy to tweak instead of larger changes

 

[jkg8787]

Unfortunately it seems like the choice is slow or extra slow. 3 choices for a whole skill seems limiting. Although swords outside LJ is essentially easily renamed to Katanaship. Fencing feels like it has the most depth in terms of usable weapons. Both spears, kryss and warfork essentially.

I've not really noticed an accuracy issue. I wonder if thats just anecdotal?

I probably repeating myself and turning into catchphrase but i dont see immediate need for changes. I support change and testing to give archery a bit of life but i dont think its in dire straights either

 

[shirtandpantsman]

Unfortunately it seems like the choice is slow or extra slow. 3 choices for a whole skill seems limiting. Although swords outside LJ is essentially easily renamed to Katanaship. Fencing feels like it has the most depth in terms of usable weapons. Both spears, kryss and warfork essentially.

I've not really noticed an accuracy issue. I wonder if thats just anecdotal?

I probably repeating myself and turning into catchphrase but i dont see immediate need for changes. I support change and testing to give archery a bit of life but i dont think its in dire straights either

I have trained my berzerker talisman to 5 purely on archery. that doesn't sound like a lot until you try it. that's like a year of dying a ton by pvming naked against high end mobs from trying to get 1 tile away for best talisman xp gains, conversely I've played my parry warriro talisman guy only a little bit and he gains easily 5x faster xp by hitting stuff with a katana, so I'm not even bringing up how slow archery is for xp gains

I have tested and tested every kind of bow, every kind of mob, full food, no food, repaired, unrepaired, everything. I'm not kidding about missing 14 times in a row with a heavy xbow, that shit happened and while thats the max, there is no time ever in UO where I've missed 14 times against a mob with a katana

people forget tactics work completely differently for archery and other melee skills and that's where the real shit is

 

[wkstrm]

This thread went from peacefull arguing to violent banter and now we're almost ready for make-up sex? WTF?!?!?!

Although swords outside LJ is essentially easily renamed to Katanaship. Fencing feels like it has the most depth in terms of usable weapons. Both spears, kryss and warfork essentially.

True that. Only newbies uses long/broad swords and that's mostly due to lack of better knowledge. When they learn the speed differences they switch to katanas.
I can't count the times when I've fallen to a katana, the fencing weapons, mace weapons, axes and staffs (although, I think staffs was highyl unused over long periods of time). I've even died to a pitchfork once. fun times.