An Additional Detect Hidden Change is Needed to Balance

[Sommerella]

One example is to fend off other thieves. Some times, you have somebody farming off the same players you're trying to. So, in order to frame them for thefts, reveal their ass. Get the spawn to aggro them. Not all thieves are like "oh hey! One of us! One of us!"
Yea it can happen, but at first you gotta play the chicken game with each others template to claim your territory.

 

[Toriad]

I'm sorry I must of read that wrong.
If they flag you, you can kill them and they can't count you. They will be grey to you if they do that. All you have to do, is get them to flag you. I find that its pretty easy. I've killed plenty of those who've attacked me. Never once been counted.
But if all they are doing is revealing you, then the only trick Is to get them to flag you.

You may have read it wrong. I'm not sure.

The whole point is that they're not flagged while they're actively trying to get me killed by revealing me.

Revealing me in the middle of a pack of dragons gets me killed just as surely as hitting me with a Corp Por. The only difference is that only one of these things flags the person doing it.

Someone getting flagged for actively trying to kill me isn't unreasonable, except that the mechanics of this specific example seem unworkable.

 

[Toriad]

im gonna take an educated guess and assume your a thief that has disarm...? magery to kill others that attack you..?

you clearly dont use this skill.....

Wrong on the first two, but you're correct in assuming I don't have detect hidden in my build.

 

[Toriad]

One example is to fend off other thieves. Some times, you have somebody farming off the same players you're trying to. So, in order to frame them for thefts, reveal their ass. Get the spawn to aggro them. Not all thieves are like "oh hey! One of us! One of us!"
Yea it can happen, but at first you gotta play the chicken game with each others template to claim your territory.

Thank you. Sounds like a good use of the skill.

Getting players onto the other thief would definitely be a lot harder after this change.

 

[Infectious]

You may have read it wrong. I'm not sure.

The whole point is that they're not flagged while they're actively trying to get me killed by revealing me.

Revealing me in the middle of a pack of dragons gets me killed just as surely as hitting me with a Corp Por. The only difference is that only one of these things flags the person doing it.

Someone getting flagged for actively trying to kill me isn't unreasonable, except that the mechanics of this specific example seem unworkable.

Thats the price you pay for hiding in a pack of dragons.... the only reason you are stealthing around destard is to loot people that die every 10 minutes... No matter what anyone does in this game someone can call it griefing.... But who cares get ressed restock the 5k you lost on your body and continue on trucking along.....

 

[Toriad]

Thats the price you pay for hiding in a pack of dragons.... the only reason you are stealthing around destard is to loot people that die every 10 minutes... No matter what anyone does in this game someone can call it griefing.... But who cares get ressed restock the 5k you lost on your body and continue on trucking along.....

I agree with everything you just said.

The person revealing me is still killing me in this example, though. In an ideal world where game mechanics can always judge the situation perfectly (not possible), they would get flagged for doing so.

 

[Toriad]

Someone also brought up getting revealed for detecting people in their own house.

That's also problematic.

 

[SidX]

I agree with everything you just said.

The person revealing me is still killing me in this example, though. In an ideal world where game mechanics can always judge the situation perfectly (not possible), they would get flagged for doing so.

This is the same as a mage casting reveal at a champ and having 8 people die. Should the mage go insta-red and get 8 counts? No. Why isn't anyone thinking of this?

If you choose to hide in a high-death area you're at risk of being revealed and killed by a mob. Nothing new here, this is Fel. There are plenty of AoS servers for people who want to PvM in peace.

Getting revealed by Detect is annoying for the victim. But if anyone says a thief should get a count for revealing someone who then dies is delusional.

Let's then count any mage who reveals or casts energy field / wall of stone resulting in someone's death. Let's also count anyone who lures a spawn to another player, and anyone who leaves a tinker trap at WBB.

It's just not going to happen. This change targeted thieves because nobody likes a thief. But by reading 99% of the other replies from everyone, nobody seems to understand a thief either.

P.S. not targeting you Toriad, as a thief I'm sure you have a grasp for what this skill does.. unlike most of the other people here.

 

[God.RG]

TL;DR, this change is stupid and unwarranted imo.
@Shane and @Adam have made some very helpful and positive changes recently, but this one.... meh.. not so good.

i can guarantee the people that complained about this one were mainly IDOC'ers.

 

[Toriad]

This is the same as a mage casting reveal at a champ and having 8 people die. Should the mage go insta-red and get 8 counts? No. Why isn't anyone thinking of this?

If you choose to hide in a high-death area you're at risk of being revealed and killed by a mob. Nothing new here, this is Fel. There are plenty of AoS servers for people who want to PvM in peace.

Getting revealed by Detect is annoying for the victim. But if anyone says a thief should get a count for revealing someone who then dies is delusional.

Let's then count any mage who reveals or casts energy field / wall of stone resulting in someone's death. Let's also count anyone who lures a spawn to another player, and anyone who leaves a tinker trap at WBB.

It's just not going to happen. This change targeted thieves because nobody likes a thief. But by reading 99% of the other replies from everyone, nobody seems to understand a thief either.

I never said they should get a count. I may have inadvertently implied it, but I was just thinking flagged. Same as stealing from them.

Again, I'm assuming impossible mechanics here, but yeah, all of those things would flag you in a perfect world. If you're killing other players, they should be allowed to kill you back.

The only problem with anything I've said on this specific subject is that the game can't judge intent. If someone puts a wall of stone down and kills someone on accident, that's a lot different from someone putting down a wall of stone with the specific intention of killing someone.

The game can't sort out the difference, and any solution to people killing people without attacking them directly is unworkable as a result.

Still, in theory, I want people to be allowed to kill people who are trying to kill them -- that's not trammie on any level, so save it.

 

[Toriad]

Actually, I'm going to walk back my previous statement.

Thieves who PK are not thieves. They are PKs.

Using detect hidden to PK is PKing. Same for stone walls. Provoked Mobs. Tinker traps. Trained mobs. Warhammers. Body Blocking. Energy Bolts. Tamed dragons.

Weapon of choice shouldn't matter. What matters is that they killed another player. They should get counts for that.

Again, mechanics-wise, this is unenforceable, so it's moot anyway.

 

[eppy]

Change was reverted. It turned out to be pointless with insta hide anyway.

 

[kurtis]

Change was reverted. It turned out to be pointless with insta hide anyway.

Thank you!!

 

[King Dingaling]

i was just about to point out...

i tried it and there was no change but u beat me to it!

 

[SidX]

 

[Karl Sagan]

Change was reverted. It turned out to be pointless with insta hide anyway.

I finally get to the end of this thread and I don't even get to whine about it?

I will be sending a formal notice of my displeasure, and it will be strongly worded.

 

[eppy]

Your displeasure pleasure is my pleasure.

 

[Bunnky]

Dem thief nerfs..

This feels like the apocalypse is happening.

 

[WizardSleeve]

Very recently, the following change was made:

• February 23rd, 2015 - Changed Detect Hidden so it reveals the skill user as well.

Okay, I guess I get it. People whined about stealth detectors that troll Destard or whatever (emphasis on the word "whine"). It's really not that big of an issue. But for the sake of argument let's assume it is a server-collapsing issue and the trolls will overtake Sosaria. If this recent change is to be kept, I think the detect hidden skill needs an additional balance change given how the mechanics currently work. Let me explain.

If you have GM Detect, and you're trying to reveal a character that has GM Hiding, you already fail quite a bit. I don't know the exact %, but I use my GM detect all of the time and I feel like it's about 50/50 (for the purpose of this post I'll just say 50% but I'll happily edit it if anyone knows the exact percentage) against someone with GM hiding. This is annoying since the skill has no other functional use. You are devoting 100 points for one purpose and one purpose only - to reveal hidden people. And now to go along with an already brutal fail rate, you reveal yourself too.

So you put 100 points in a skill and you have a 100% chance to reveal yourself and a 50% to reveal someone else with GM hiding? Wtf?? This seems like a back asswards way for a skill like that to work. And then even if they are revealed they can immediately re-hide, assuming the cooldown is up.

I don't understand why there is such a heavy advantage to the other person hidden. Again, we are devoting skill points for something that has no other use than to reveal people. Having a skill like detect instead of something else is a huge sacrifice, especially in PvP templates. It should provide an ultimate advantage against hiders.

So I propose that if this recent change be kept, then GM Detect should have a 100% chance to reveal a hidden character, regardless of their hiding skill.

Thanks for reading.

I have a proposal. Shut down the UO server and start up an EQ or WOW server. That way it becomes the easy mode that all the care bears wanted and no one has to rage quit over anything.