Why aren't guild sizes limited?

[steve-o]

he doesn't outrun me, he is just good at running

don't think he uses anything strange... But i m pretty sure he use some good explo pot macro....

i always liked kaz even when he was zergin with power long time ago

 

[Shane]

It's truly a hard thing to deal with.
We've only had issues with large guilds maybe 3 times max. All of them being pk guilds.
I'm going to assume this is mostly about EQMS,

While EQMS is not breaking any rules, by mass recruiting they for sure have driven off a lot of pvp for themselves and others simply by playing the game as intended. In large groups, with many friends.

We cannot punish them for that, there's no grounds too, and they are honestly all very nice/good people in that guild. That play style is just what they love, playing in numbers is a lot of fun most people here can agree with that.

However, at the same time we need to absolutely look out for Ultima Online Forever's best interest and i think we can all agree on that as well too right?

So, that leaves us with a rather large issue. EQMS originally came back to UO FOREVER because factions and pvp was booming. However after months now, pvp is once again dying out and i've been getting requests (mostly from eqms, and glutt himself) to revamp factions all over again. This would be the 4th time revamping factions. Factions, and how factions works isn't the issue anymore guys. We should of seen this a lot sooner really.

This faction system is WHY eqms came back here.
Before EQMS the factions were booming, people were having a lot of fun.
Now i have EQMS asking us to change it up due to lack of faction pvp.
I also have some other pvpers asking us to do more to further push PvP.
What happened here guys?

We really shouldn't have to overhaul such a large system multiple times a year to keep people interested.
Truth is It just isn't fun to face large ganks like they produce due to the girth of their guild and i get that. There's no point even. But to have those larger guilds wanting us to focus on PvP, without really coming to terms with whats best for UOF and working with us, is a fucking hard pill to swallow guys.



Anyways, all in all having a guild the size of EQMS, although doing nothing wrong or breaking rules, can, and is for sure hurting UO FOREVER.
They for sure DO NOT have those intentions, in fact EQMS has very good intentions for UO FOREVER as far as i'm concerned.

I've brought this issue up a lot to Gluttomy, and there's really no argument response that can defy what i said above, because factually it's true, it's just how it is.

They will have to make some changes, split their group, do something a bit different-
Once we see them trying to take my experienced advice, mixed with the rather large complaints seriously and try to work with the community, and everyone a little more then i will really work with them as a large guild as well.

IF they don't really want to work with everyone here as a community and the community leaders than things like limiting guild sizes, harsher pk penalties, and some other things are most likely going to be implemented.

Lot's to think about. It's personally a really shitty position as a owner of a server honestly.

 

[Blaine the Gypsy]

Maybe it's time all the other guilds set aside their differences and step up to the plate of fighting the larger guild in order to fight each other. This is an issue no matter what happens. So suck it up and group up. Even during my war with Trinsic we'd team up against the zerg guilds. Finding common ground in a community is a must.

 

[Shortbus]

Instead of limiting guild sizes, could limit Faction sizes? As I have stated before, Minax (guaranteed) has more members than SL, CoM and TB combined. Just a thought.

This would cause the mighty EQMS to not all be in Minax and have others to actually fight (even if it was amongst themselves). I see "reputable" people jumping to Minax just for the Sigil bonuses that have no and would have no affiliation with EQMS otherwise.

The fact that they have so many numbers is why they keep all sigils...by limiting the amount of members a said Faction can have (not saying strong limit in general, but let's say that 300 people are MInax while TB has 20, SL has 20, and CoM has 35) it will make more Faction PvP happen. Should be a limit to how large a given faction can be overtop of the other factions...if they want to have more Faction PvP, then this limit needs to occur. It is so one sided right now and they did it to theirselves imho.

Now I don't know the exact numbers, true, but the amount of Minax tags (compared to CoM, TB and SL) I see running around kinda let's me know where the swing/balance of power is in Faction PvP.

 

[Blaine the Gypsy]

Limit on factions/faction guild numbers would help. It would prevent one having 200 vs the 5 lonely guards at the gate.
Normal guilds don't have what factions have.... so don't limit them.

 

[Shane]

Try to read this, as it's very educational and really shows everyone what i think about over all.


Keep in mind the number one reason people quit is due to being pk'd.
This is an absolute fact and always has been
Basically not being able to even play/grind. Everytime they try as a legit player they just get mowed. People quit so fast over this.

Take your average mediocre "average joe" player as an example:
Player finds UO Forever, hasn't played UO in years or not at all. This player gets set up and logs in finally figures out how to create a char etc. This player does not use 3 accounts. This player also works 50 hour weeks or more, comes home to a naggy wife, puts his kids to bed and finally has some time to enjoy his new found, or returned to favorite game (UOF). This guy logs in, he doesn't macro skills, so he must go out and fight to raise them, maybe he teams up with one or two people from the new guild. They go out, within the first 10 minutes he gets pk'd. He thinks "Oh well, that was exhilarating, part of the game, and goes and restocks. 10 minutes later, BAM get's pk'd again. 9/10 times that guy will log off, and will never play again.

Guess what though?
Mediocre "average joe" is the guy that donates a lot at first because he works a ton, has a wife and kids, and doesn't have much free time to grind and put into UOF every single day.
mediocre "average joe" is that player that makes veterans feel that nostalgic.
mediocre "average joe" is that player that can still be scammed with a scam used back in 2001.
mediocre "average joe" is that player that you see in full plate asking where to buy a horse, or buys/sells horses at WBB.
mediocre "average joe" Is the reason UO FOREVER is where it is.


The guys killing mediocre "average joe"?
The majority of those players log in, PK people and when there's no one left to pk, log out.
The majority of those players are also most vocal about changes/complaints.
The majority of those players do not donate, nor do they PvM or contribute to any other play styles (Some do, i'm not saying ALL)



Sooo... we update, work, market, and pay for ads, to consistently obtain a nice steady flow of mediocre "average joe's" into UO FOREVER , and in the end of ALL of it, UO FOREVER is getting royally fucked in the ass, by that pk player play style.

And the silver lining?
Guess whos money we use to pay for ads and get more people here for those people to have fun with/pk?
That's right, mediocre "average joe's" money, the same average joe player that just wanted to kick back, relax and escape the stress of his life for awhile with what little free time he had.

Can you all totally understand why trammel was implemented now? rofl.. IT blew my mind when i came to all these conclusions by experiencing large guilds, and pk guilds on UOF.

We obviously would never introduce trammel, however you can see how those who give little, ask for a lot while driving away those who give alot and ask for little, and in this situation those who are driven away are supporting the exact people that are driving them away.




All in all,
Having a huge guild constantly zerging definitely drives people away.
Having a huge red guild constantly zerging while pking, can be absolute toxic for a server of this size.


There's 15 thousand players in the new guild.
That tells you how many people join, and quit.
Keep in mind as my original opening statement says, the main reason for people quitting is pk's/unable to play how they wish.
Getting away from 1 or 2 pk's is easy, escaping 10-15 is fucking tough.


I've went above and beyond the issue with larger guilds, but with larger guilds comes larger PK guilds, and all in all it's tying together more than ever lately.

I hope that was a good explanation as to why larger guilds although not breaking rules will need a change and why PK's although not breaking the rules, will need a change.


This is what i think about, my train of thought and that train of thought has done really well for UOFOREVER thus far. This subject is one of the hardest ones i've ever had to deal with on UOF for sure.

 

[steve-o]

great message Shane!

start removing the no chop zone, add more pk penalties, remove sallos and remove all target closest/nearest/random/next and you will see all EQMS leave the server.

 

[Blaine the Gypsy]

Average Joe is top priority and not just on the donation level, but the neutrality level.

Put the risk back in... that's my only suggestion. People are just getting slapped on the forehead then slapped on their ass on the way back out.

 

[Poptart]

it ain't over till its over, man. Killing one when its 1v5 is way better than winning any fair number fight.


#bebrave
#fightoutnumbered
#nevergivein

They don't know what that feels like mang.

 

[K A Z]

It's truly a hard thing to deal with.
We've only had issues with large guilds maybe 3 times max. All of them being pk guilds.
I'm going to assume this is mostly about EQMS,

While EQMS is not breaking any rules, by mass recruiting they for sure have driven off a lot of pvp for themselves and others simply by playing the game as intended. In large groups, with many friends.

We cannot punish them for that, there's no grounds too, and they are honestly all very nice/good people in that guild. That play style is just what they love, playing in numbers is a lot of fun most people here can agree with that.

However, at the same time we need to absolutely look out for Ultima Online Forever's best interest and i think we can all agree on that as well too right?

So, that leaves us with a rather large issue. EQMS originally came back to UO FOREVER because factions and pvp was booming. However after months now, pvp is once again dying out and i've been getting requests (mostly from eqms, and glutt himself) to revamp factions all over again. This would be the 4th time revamping factions. Factions, and how factions works isn't the issue anymore guys. We should of seen this a lot sooner really.

This faction system is WHY eqms came back here.
Before EQMS the factions were booming, people were having a lot of fun.
Now i have EQMS asking us to change it up due to lack of faction pvp.
I also have some other pvpers asking us to do more to further push PvP.
What happened here guys?

We really shouldn't have to overhaul such a large system multiple times a year to keep people interested.
Truth is It just isn't fun to face large ganks like they produce due to the girth of their guild and i get that. There's no point even. But to have those larger guilds wanting us to focus on PvP, without really coming to terms with whats best for UOF and working with us, is a fucking hard pill to swallow guys.



Anyways, all in all having a guild the size of EQMS, although doing nothing wrong or breaking rules, can, and is for sure hurting UO FOREVER.
They for sure DO NOT have those intentions, in fact EQMS has very good intentions for UO FOREVER as far as i'm concerned.

I've brought this issue up a lot to Gluttomy, and there's really no argument response that can defy what i said above, because factually it's true, it's just how it is.

They will have to make some changes, split their group, do something a bit different-
Once we see them trying to take my experienced advice, mixed with the rather large complaints seriously and try to work with the community, and everyone a little more then i will really work with them as a large guild as well.

IF they don't really want to work with everyone here as a community and the community leaders than things like limiting guild sizes, harsher pk penalties, and some other things are most likely going to be implemented.

Lot's to think about. It's personally a really shitty position as a owner of a server honestly.

247 wasn't a PK guild - they still made alot of trouble.

You have to update the PVM content of this Server (way bigger than any faction system) around 10x a year to keep the PVMers occupied and happy.

Harsher PK penalties do nothing good.

I haven't seen EQMS zerg with more than 8 or 10 in ages. 8-10 is an average sized group - if others can't fight that they should maybe switch to a solo RPG.

german speedhacks. He's the only euro with 120 ping that can outrun americans that ping 16

I was observed for over a year, and was never jailed let alone banned. No speedhax from me, buddie. I also don't use explopot macros/scripts/whatsoever.

quick fixes to prevent griefing:

when newly ressed from a healer or ankh players should have 25-30% of their life
make healers harder to kill, give them more HP
eventually expand the young status to 14 days but make it to where a companion has to grant the young player status to help with people abusing the system


if you remove the no-chop zone youre basically keeping new players away from experiencing PVP and are thus limiting their UO experience to PVM/crafting.

 

[Shane]

"Harsher PK penalties do nothing good.

I haven't seen EQMS zerg with more than 8 or 10 in ages. 8-10 is an average sized group - if others can't fight that they should maybe switch to a solo RPG."


I'm not saying EQMS is the sole problem, i appologize if it came out that way, i used them as an example because i think everyone here knows about them the most.

Also i seen like 7 EQMS roll through brit off mount yesterday just messing with people. When you see that kind of stuff, it really makes you wonder.

I also did not see any EQMS get rewards at the battles tournement i don't believe.

Most other guilds had at least one person higher in the ranks with scores.
Harsher pk penalties could do a ton for this server.
Simply implementing perma stat at a 10% can drive the crafting, and reagent economy right up while creating a legitimate gold sink.
I mean main pvp skills are so easy to gain here in reality and quick too. It would give more worth to their characters, and give more reason and value to hunt pk's.

We have been really relaxed and favourable to pk's and the pk play style for years now while that play style has driven people away from UOF. It's not bad when there's a few of them at a time, but larger groups rolling like i've seen and have had quiet a few complaints about can be very bad.

All i'm saying is come to a conclusion as a community.

 

[thestand]

It only takes one solo red(or blue) to make newbs quit. Not sure what limiting larger guilds or making stat loss harsher would actually accomplish for your player base. With 3 accounts and 7 players per account people can still blue pk multiple people a day. I play mostly solo and I'm not even that good but I don't mind fighting outnumbered. It's one way to get better as a player. You need to be fast!

 

[steve-o]

but this EQMS thing is not new... many nice pvper left cause of them, there is no fun in fighting 15vs5 all time

and the alliance between EQMS zerg and the best group (azria crew) was really stupid!

 

[K A Z]

It only takes one solo red(or blue) to make newbs quit. Not sure what limiting larger guilds or making stat loss harsher would actually accomplish for your player base. With 3 accounts and 7 players per account people can still blue pk multiple people a day. I play mostly solo and I'm not even that good but I don't mind fighting outnumbered. It's one way to get better as a player. You need to be fast!

this. I also don't understand why the main focus is - yet again - on reds, and those who play reds "for a living" when the real douchebags are the ones griefing tamers on their blues and/or opportunistically recalling in on a red. It's those who need to be punished for their evil ways, not the ones PKing. The "good pvpers" who left because of EQMS were actually also not a good addition to this server as most of what they brought was drama and QQing alongside douchebaggery and just a very poor playstyle of marathon running.

 

[Poptart]

- Remove sallos it's toxic.
- Add perma stat for reds, so we can weed out all these fucks. Rebuilding skills isn't hard.
- Bring back order/chaos, factions blow.
- Play UO the way it was meant to be played, that's the nostalgia people miss.

 

[Shane]

but this EQMS thing is not new... many nice pvper left cause of them, there is no fun in fighting 15vs5 all time

and the alliance between EQMS and the best group (azria crew) was really stupid!

Yeah that's the entire point basically.
The hard part is they are all good guys, they mean well, they are playing the game how it's intended to be played and breaking zero rules. As much as people hate them they do add a lot of action to UOFOREVER.

These larger groups and alliances that pk/pvp are asking for pvp updates/faction changes yet don't seem to really see the largest issue of all that not only effects pvp negatively but now is effecting the server as a whole by them grouping so large. They are having a blast doing it, i guarantee it, but at the cost of many other players enjoyment, and slowly UO FOREVER as a whole.

If they want people to fight against in years to come, shit will have to change at least for now.

We aren;'t hurting in player base, just a lot of pvpers have complained or quit over the last while here.

And i know how pk guilds play usually. If there's no one to PVP against, they will go pking.

This is just something i'd like to snub before it gets way worse.

 

[Shane]

- Remove sallos it's toxic.
- Add perma stat for reds, so we can weed out all these fucks. Rebuilding skills isn't hard.
- Bring back order/chaos, factions blow.
- Play UO the way it was meant to be played, that's the nostalgia people miss.

I pretty much agree with everything here.
I'd like to remove factions and implement someting new.

 

[Blaine the Gypsy]

Perma stat can be put in no problem. This shard has skill scrolls so you can just rebuild that character with scrolls which goes to the economy.

 

[steve-o]

I hope it's not too late...

and updating anything in the faction wouldn't help at all

the zerg will continue to zerg and the other will continue to die and one day they will just not log anymore (as soon one of them stop loggin... they all stop playing!)

many many many groups stopped loggin after gettin zerged over and over and over

ps: pk permastat is bad... i dont think it's a solution

 

[Shane]

Perma stat can be put in no problem. This shard has skill scrolls so you can just rebuild that character with scrolls which goes to the economy.

Yeah i think it's fucking hilarious when PK's or anyone complains about us implementing a minor perma stat.
Truth is you'd get back into the game faster most likely with perma stat than the system we have now as a PK except you're contributing in some way to the community/economy (buying reagents, scrolls, etc).