Ashpool
Novice
If this ever did get removed I'd be happy to tutor people on how to perform 100% safe trades without needing a vendor. For a modest fee, ofc.
Amsterdamaged
Apprentice
You hurt the mobs. and the economy
Lexington
Grandmaster
Ashpool
Novice
It's actually very easy if you take the correct precautions. Think about thief mechanics and then use your imagination.
Lexington
Grandmaster
Salsa
Grandmaster
Don't even have a thief and agree that the docks shouldn't be a safe trade area.
Ashpool
Novice
Not like anyone was going to pay me to find out anyway 
You need to be on the tile next to someone to steal. There are several ways to separate yourself from someone while still being able to trade and access a secure container (and in one location, this is inside a bank). Combine this with a GM detect hidden alt and the right not to trade with someone if things get fishy and you're golden.
You need to be on the tile next to someone to steal. There are several ways to separate yourself from someone while still being able to trade and access a secure container (and in one location, this is inside a bank). Combine this with a GM detect hidden alt and the right not to trade with someone if things get fishy and you're golden.
Amsterdamaged
Apprentice
You are so right man, but kids these days are impatient and lazy and want instant gratification. Its easier for them to cry for nerf and watering down than to make a couple more clicks and take those precautions. Thats why we have all those theme park mmos out there and the docks here...Not like anyone was going to pay me to find out anyway
You need to be on the tile next to someone to steal. There are several ways to separate yourself from someone while still being able to trade and access a secure container (and in one location, this is inside a bank). Combine this with a GM detect hidden alt and the right not to trade with someone if things get fishy and you're golden.
Antelope
Apprentice
That is why certain items are blessed. High value items that are not blessed should be at some risk. That is what separates UO from most other games, the fact that there is some risk in whatever you do. The docks fly in the face of that.
I do not have a thief nor a dedicated PK. I just know that the docks is a dedicated pocket of exactly what ruined this game the first time around.
Lexington
Grandmaster
Not like anyone was going to pay me to find out anyway
You need to be on the tile next to someone to steal. There are several ways to separate yourself from someone while still being able to trade and access a secure container (and in one location, this is inside a bank). Combine this with a GM detect hidden alt and the right not to trade with someone if things get fishy and you're golden.
%100 eh??
This would be the way I would steal your goods. I would have my hidden thief, on my second account, close by. When you put your power scroll in the trade window, that scroll I told you I would buy for millions of gold, I’d walk my thief over cancel the trade making that power scroll fall into your pack. At this point my thief grabs it and it now belongs to me. Now you’re going to say the “guards” will wack me right. Well I’m ready for that… I plan on looting the body with the guy that was there to do the original trade. Even if I don’t get the scroll there is a good chance someone else will. Either way you’re out the scroll and you don’t have my gold. Now sure there are a few loop holes in my technique as there are in yours. My point is there is no such thing as safe trading outside a safe area. There isn’t even %100 safe trading on the docks. I witnessed a guy last night drop a check on the floor by mistake. It belonged to someone else before you could blink.
Lexington
Grandmaster
They are at risk at times and at times they are not at risk. They are at risk when you re farming them but not when you have them in the bank. The dock only allows them to be at less at risk when trading not when farming and not when you are transporting them to the docks or to the bank. Thieves have their chance to steal them at those times. You guys are talking like the items are never at risk which is not even close to reality!
Ashpool
Novice
Either you didn't read what I wrote or you didn't understand it.
Karl Sagan
Grandmaster
easily defeated by doing what he said. detect hidden, tracking, and reveal all negate your plan. And if someone cancels the trade you walk immediately.
There is a (complicated) way around his precautions but I ain't sharin!
Lexington
Grandmaster
Like I said there are loop holes for sure… but anyone who thinks they have a full proof %100 way to safe trade is wrong. You can do all your checks and you might think the area is safe but once that trade window is opened and the item is placed in it and someone cancels the trade (because they don’t feel safe and want to walk away) it will fall into a pack and at that point the item is not safe!
Here is a thought... what if the person you are trading with is the thief? The bad guy would be standing right in front of you all along and you wouldn't even know?? Cancel trade last target item gone! Detect hidden won’t help in this case.
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Ashpool
Novice
Yeah there are a few long winded ways to try and get around this safe trade method. I can probably guess your method and without giving too much away it involves knowing details of how the trade will go down before hand and wouldn't work if the trade took place in a private custom house on this shard?
Anyway we've gone way off tangent.
On topic: I don't have an opinion either way on the docks. I'm currently abusing it to bank all my loot - and why not? I'd be stupid not to take advantage of a feature like this.
Ashpool
Novice
Try again, you're the other side of a table from me. Also, I can macro the item back into my bank with a hotkey.
I am 100% in favor of eliminating the docks as a safe banking area and by most on this server I would probably be considered a Trammy. All my characters are crafters or PvMers (although I am making a PvPer to try to learn that). Also I am without a doubt the worst PvPer on the server. Below is why I think the docks should be removed as a safe banking area.
The main problem with the docks is that building a reputation and establishing yourself as an honest trader has less of a benefit with 100% safe trading. This reduces the social penalty for people that are known for scamming or are generally disreputable. In the old days of UO I often remember not buying from someone purely based on their reputation because doing the trade would be too much work and require me to stay on my toes to avoid getting ripped off. With 100% safe banking/trading this fear is removed and the social consequences aren't as great.
Now if thieves are broken, I have never played a thief so have no clue, then they should be "fixed" regardless of whether or not the docks are removed.
While trades would be more inconvenient and I am sure more dangerous that is what we all claim to want by playing on a server without Trammel. Just like getting PKed is part of playing on a server without Trammel. This is even more skewed since the penalties for murder here are pretty care bear compared to the penalties that were in place on OSI (Trammel for murderers basically). To be clear I actually like the head turn in system and the danger PKs provide. I also "like" the danger thieves provide (I reserve to right to rage though).
The main problem with the docks is that building a reputation and establishing yourself as an honest trader has less of a benefit with 100% safe trading. This reduces the social penalty for people that are known for scamming or are generally disreputable. In the old days of UO I often remember not buying from someone purely based on their reputation because doing the trade would be too much work and require me to stay on my toes to avoid getting ripped off. With 100% safe banking/trading this fear is removed and the social consequences aren't as great.
Now if thieves are broken, I have never played a thief so have no clue, then they should be "fixed" regardless of whether or not the docks are removed.
While trades would be more inconvenient and I am sure more dangerous that is what we all claim to want by playing on a server without Trammel. Just like getting PKed is part of playing on a server without Trammel. This is even more skewed since the penalties for murder here are pretty care bear compared to the penalties that were in place on OSI (Trammel for murderers basically). To be clear I actually like the head turn in system and the danger PKs provide. I also "like" the danger thieves provide (I reserve to right to rage though).
Karl Sagan
Grandmaster
You are correct, and yeah I'm using the hell outta the docks as well. Having an opinion doesn't mean I'm not a realist
I love how all of you guys keep playing the "tram" card, but are the worst players out there. You don't have the right to pull the "tram" card when you're absolutely trash at pvp. It just doesn't work. The GMs don't want the headache of this shit and I guarantee this thread will be locked soon also because they are probably tired of you guys beating a dead horse. This helps the server is ZERO ways.
Lexington
Grandmaster
Hey Gore, There is no doubt you are among the higher ranks when it comes to PVP here but I don’t understand it when you come down on people who don't like trammel, just because they aren’t good at PVP. You didn't have to be a PVPer to enjoy playing the game before Trammel so I don’t see the relationship?
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