Stealing - Mount cooldown

[MortalSword]

Its not fucking people over. Its called learn to play the game better. If you don't like a certain class, defend yourself against. Its apart of uo. I mean idk who can disagree with that.

Taking things that don't belong to you, ie, stealing, is fucking someone else over. Just like PKing them and taking their shit is. Predatory behavior, encouraged by the platform or not is still predatory. You are still profiting from taking from others rather than the fruit of your own labor. Why do you think every successful MMO since UO has either removed this aspect from their game or never included it in the first place? Because most people don't like being fucked over by people who are more concerned with their own selfish desires than the repercussions of their actions. Mindfully deciding that your idea of enjoying this game is the premeditated act of either lying. cheating, stealing or straight up murdering someone is a concerted effort at fucking someone else over for your personal gain.

Now before you spout off and call me a Trammie, blue, etc, realize that I don't care. I have done all of those things in the past, I choose not to anymore. It's not my cup of tea. I don't entertain myself by enraging and denying others joy/possessions/fun. I respect that UO is one of the few games that has systems for that kind of gameplay. The whole point of this thread was to highlight an imbalance, and that is one template above all others gets to potentially profit from the hard work of others at ZERO RISK. When you need no equipment, nor need no materials to achieve the template to do these things, and every other class/role in the game does have to expend resources and assume risk, that is the literal definition of imbalance.

The single biggest factor that inhibited thieves and PKs from becoming overly problematic back in the day were the limitations placed upon them by choosing those paths. This shard has all but lifted almost all of those from both classes. Back in the day the reason this wasn't a huge issue was because it took months to become a quality thief. It took months to acquire the template to be an effective PK, and there were real limitations on where you could go and what you could do. People who chose those lifestyles had to be dedicated, and pour a lot of time and resources into pursuing it. Here, every ragekid can have those things in a couple hours. While what is going on with reds is a conversation for another thread, there are checks and balances for them. They can be subjected to ramifications. Thieves do not suffer that vulnerability. They can lift something and bank it near instantly. They can escape at will (both because of the mounting issue mentioned here, and also because there is no mount fatigue). You are welcome to disagree with me, but I'm not wrong. Of all the templates in the game, thief has the highest potential reward factor coupled with near zero risk.

You guys like to talk about what ruined UO. The people ruined UO. People preying on other people. People taking the easy route to wealth and advancement are what drove the developers to create Tram. Not everybody is cut out for the dog eat dog world of UO, and that's why ultimately outside of social groups like this, the game is largely unknown. Every major western MMO since then that has experienced any success either eliminated these systems or never introduced them in the first place. All PVP and real loss risk scenarios were opt-in. I'm not even remotely pushing for that here, I understand that is what makes this game exciting on a level that most other MMOs cannot reach. That has always been tempered by a certain degree of balance. When that balance does not exist, you will lose people. This community is already inbred enough as it is.

In any case, just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm not right. Agree to disagree I guess, it's not like anyone is going to nerf thieves. They got a major buff with pots stacking and eppy already said he thinks thieves needed some help. I don't see it, but I'm not the guy who makes those decisions. I voiced my perspective, you can all continue to assume that I'm just butthurt if you like, I'll continue to analyze systems like a rational human being who understand game mechanics.

VFingerDicount - You first.

 

[jimmy dean]

1. Let's discuss the risk you assume as a thief...
...none. You assume zero risk as a thief, because your template requires no resources to skill up, no equipment or resources to implement, with the sole expenditure you make being your time, which on this shard is laughable considering the skill gain rates.

2. Every other template in the game requires resources to generate gains. Crafters need thousands if not millions of gold worth of materials before they start producing profit, PVM assumes a high amount of risk acquiring wealth through gameplay, and PVP/PKs expend alot of resources to try to acquire other people's stuff. Thieves macro a few skills for a couple days, and then get to wander around on a mount taking whatever they can find.

3. On OSI it took weeks or months to work up the skills to be an effective thief. You could not steal on a mount, and stealth worked very differently. Currently you can basically do a drive by and run and hide infinitely. It takes two people to counter you, which is ridiculous.

4. You talk about people hiding their stuff....how does that apply at a champ spawn? When you get to click one button and steal the high risk rewards that other strive to obtain, while expending almost nothing to do so.

Don't try to act like thieves have it rough. You risk NOTHING to get things for free. If you fail you lose nothing but some time. You get to "farm" a hub that has dozens of people pass through it an hour. If that wasn't enough, you have people who are abusing the system here by running scripts. All I'm suggesting is one small balance to at least reduce the impunity you currently posses for your template.

As for Trammel, people like you like to quote Trammel as the end of UO. There are so many factors that went into the decline of UO's popularity that it's ridiculous, and you act like Tram killed the game by itself. Tram's implementation pushed most of the population to one side of the server, so that certainly had an effect, but thousands of people were perfectly content with not having to deal with selfish dickbags 24/7. It might have a little bit more to do with the fact that a little game called EverQuest came out two years into UO. You know....a fully 3d MMORPG that was the first game to break 1 million subscribers. Or any number of other factors that contributed in addition to Tram and EA's other awful implementation.

Thieves on UOF =/= thieves on OSI. There is an imbalance that should be addressed, to some degree.


Edit: In full disclosure, I've lost a couple medoicre bows to thieves. I'm not butthurt. I just call it how I see it.

LOL What a false hood thiefs can and always could steal on mount on OSI .They might as well just remove thiefs according too your logic. On my thief i carry regs pots and pouchs so its kind of a big deal when i die .If you cant kill a thief who isnt carrying regs pots or bandages then you have got bigger problems and this probably isnt your game. Clearly you are butt hurt you are wrighting a book on the subject on here trying to trammy up the game because you dont know how to combat theifs.

 

[jimmy dean]

Taking things that don't belong to you, ie, stealing, is fucking someone else over. Just like PKing them and taking their shit is. Predatory behavior, encouraged by the platform or not is still predatory. You are still profiting from taking from others rather than the fruit of your own labor. Why do you think every successful MMO since UO has either removed this aspect from their game or never included it in the first place? Because most people don't like being fucked over by people who are more concerned with their own selfish desires than the repercussions of their actions. Mindfully deciding that your idea of enjoying this game is the premeditated act of either lying. cheating, stealing or straight up murdering someone is a concerted effort at fucking someone else over for your personal gain.

Now before you spout off and call me a Trammie, blue, etc, realize that I don't care. I have done all of those things in the past, I choose not to anymore. It's not my cup of tea. I don't entertain myself by enraging and denying others joy/possessions/fun. I respect that UO is one of the few games that has systems for that kind of gameplay. The whole point of this thread was to highlight an imbalance, and that is one template above all others gets to potentially profit from the hard work of others at ZERO RISK. When you need no equipment, nor need no materials to achieve the template to do these things, and every other class/role in the game does have to expend resources and assume risk, that is the literal definition of imbalance.

The single biggest factor that inhibited thieves and PKs from becoming overly problematic back in the day were the limitations placed upon them by choosing those paths. This shard has all but lifted almost all of those from both classes. Back in the day the reason this wasn't a huge issue was because it took months to become a quality thief. It took months to acquire the template to be an effective PK, and there were real limitations on where you could go and what you could do. People who chose those lifestyles had to be dedicated, and pour a lot of time and resources into pursuing it. Here, every ragekid can have those things in a couple hours. While what is going on with reds is a conversation for another thread, there are checks and balances for them. They can be subjected to ramifications. Thieves do not suffer that vulnerability. They can lift something and bank it near instantly. They can escape at will (both because of the mounting issue mentioned here, and also because there is no mount fatigue). You are welcome to disagree with me, but I'm not wrong. Of all the templates in the game, thief has the highest potential reward factor coupled with near zero risk.

You guys like to talk about what ruined UO. The people ruined UO. People preying on other people. People taking the easy route to wealth and advancement are what drove the developers to create Tram. Not everybody is cut out for the dog eat dog world of UO, and that's why ultimately outside of social groups like this, the game is largely unknown. Every major western MMO since then that has experienced any success either eliminated these systems or never introduced them in the first place. All PVP and real loss risk scenarios were opt-in. I'm not even remotely pushing for that here, I understand that is what makes this game exciting on a level that most other MMOs cannot reach. That has always been tempered by a certain degree of balance. When that balance does not exist, you will lose people. This community is already inbred enough as it is.

In any case, just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm not right. Agree to disagree I guess, it's not like anyone is going to nerf thieves. They got a major buff with pots stacking and eppy already said he thinks thieves needed some help. I don't see it, but I'm not the guy who makes those decisions. I voiced my perspective, you can all continue to assume that I'm just butthurt if you like, I'll continue to analyze systems like a rational human being who understand game mechanics.

VFingerDicount - You first.

Go play wow or something stop trying to fuck up are classic game here

 

[MortalSword]

LOL What a false hood thiefs can and always could steal on mount on OSI .They might as well just remove thiefs according too your logic. On my thief i carry regs pots and pouchs so its kind of a big deal when i die .If you cant kill a thief who isnt carrying regs pots or bandages then you have got bigger problems and this probably isnt your game. Clearly you are butt hurt you are wrighting a book on the subject on here trying to trammy up the game because you dont know how to combat theifs.

Exactly the sort of useless argument I called for. It would be amazing if you had a better argument than "nuh uhn, fuck you trammy, you must be bad". Without understand the context that the rules on this server are no where near accurate to any era of UO's history, let alone the period you pretend to glorify. Yeah I'm stupid for writing a lengthy post with logic and analysis. I should just smarten up and precast FS everything that doesn't have my guildtag above it's head.

 

[MortalSword]

Go play wow or something stop trying to fuck up are classic game here

Read my above post. This shard is so far from Classic UO you could slap a Blizzard logo on it.

 

[Messremb]

Ok first off thieves are op here on uof, and yes I used to play a thief here. stealing on osi revealed when activated not when targeted as it does here, meaning thieves were visible for 10 seconds after a steal. They could steal mounted. Stealth used to need to be activated, and you had to count steps. So yes compared to osi and based only off mechanics thieves are very op.

However, they are balanced by a few other things, the docks being a major one, also the dismount when stealing PSs, and the return item when the thief dies system that was added. these things do not completely balance out thieves but they come close.

IMO the only thing I think needs to be changed is the ability to bank stolen items right away.

Also, claiming that nerfing any thief skills will beak the class shows you are a bad thief. The best thieves don't even need the stealing skill to do their thing.

 

[MortalSword]

Ok first off thieves are op here on uof, and yes I used to play a thief here. stealing on osi revealed when activated not when targeted as it does here, meaning thieves were visible for 10 seconds after a steal. They could steal mounted. Stealth used to need to be activated, and you had to count steps. So yes compared to osi and based only off mechanics thieves are very op.

However, they are balanced by a few other things, the docks being a major one, also the dismount when stealing PSs, and the return item when the thief dies system that was added. these things do not completely balance out thieves but they come close.

IMO the only thing I think needs to be changed is the ability to bank stolen items right away.

Also, claiming that nerfing any thief skills will beak the class shows you are a bad thief. The best thieves don't even need the stealing skill to do their thing.

That seems like pretty good insight. Makes sense to me.

 

[jimmy dean]

Taking things that don't belong to you, ie, stealing, is fucking someone else over. Just like PKing them and taking their shit is. Predatory behavior, encouraged by the platform or not is still predatory. You are still profiting from taking from others rather than the fruit of your own labor. Why do you think every successful MMO since UO has either removed this aspect from their game or never included it in the first place? Because most people don't like being fucked over by people who are more concerned with their own selfish desires than the repercussions of their actions. Mindfully deciding that your idea of enjoying this game is the premeditated act of either lying. cheating, stealing or straight up murdering someone is a concerted effort at fucking someone else over for your personal gain.

Now before you spout off and call me a Trammie, blue, etc, realize that I don't care. I have done all of those things in the past, I choose not to anymore. It's not my cup of tea. I don't entertain myself by enraging and denying others joy/possessions/fun. I respect that UO is one of the few games that has systems for that kind of gameplay. The whole point of this thread was to highlight an imbalance, and that is one template above all others gets to potentially profit from the hard work of others at ZERO RISK. When you need no equipment, nor need no materials to achieve the template to do these things, and every other class/role in the game does have to expend resources and assume risk, that is the literal definition of imbalance.

The single biggest factor that inhibited thieves and PKs from becoming overly problematic back in the day were the limitations placed upon them by choosing those paths. This shard has all but lifted almost all of those from both classes. Back in the day the reason this wasn't a huge issue was because it took months to become a quality thief. It took months to acquire the template to be an effective PK, and there were real limitations on where you could go and what you could do. People who chose those lifestyles had to be dedicated, and pour a lot of time and resources into pursuing it. Here, every ragekid can have those things in a couple hours. While what is going on with reds is a conversation for another thread, there are checks and balances for them. They can be subjected to ramifications. Thieves do not suffer that vulnerability. They can lift something and bank it near instantly. They can escape at will (both because of the mounting issue mentioned here, and also because there is no mount fatigue). You are welcome to disagree with me, but I'm not wrong. Of all the templates in the game, thief has the highest potential reward factor coupled with near zero risk.

You guys like to talk about what ruined UO. The people ruined UO. People preying on other people. People taking the easy route to wealth and advancement are what drove the developers to create Tram. Not everybody is cut out for the dog eat dog world of UO, and that's why ultimately outside of social groups like this, the game is largely unknown. Every major western MMO since then that has experienced any success either eliminated these systems or never introduced them in the first place. All PVP and real loss risk scenarios were opt-in. I'm not even remotely pushing for that here, I understand that is what makes this game exciting on a level that most other MMOs cannot reach. That has always been tempered by a certain degree of balance. When that balance does not exist, you will lose people. This community is already inbred enough as it is.

In any case, just because you don't like it doesn't mean I'm not right. Agree to disagree I guess, it's not like anyone is going to nerf thieves. They got a major buff with pots stacking and eppy already said he thinks thieves needed some help. I don't see it, but I'm not the guy who makes those decisions. I voiced my perspective, you can all continue to assume that I'm just butthurt if you like, I'll continue to analyze systems like a rational human being who understand game mechanics.

VFingerDicount - You first.

You keep saying "ZERO RISK" most thiefs carry stuff to keep them alive and if they dont there going to get killed quickly and they shouldnt be much of a threat. As a disarm thief its pretty much mandatory to carry refresh pots in order to disarm .Also its takes a good bit of TIME to find people with stuff worth stealing its not like you can just log on your theif for 5 mins and find people with valuables to steal most people protect there stuff by covering it or puting it a locked box or a traped box.

 

[MortalSword]

You keep saying "ZERO RISK" most thiefs carry stuff to keep them alive and if they dont there going to get killed quickly and they shouldnt be much of a threat. As a disarm thief its pretty much mandatory to carry refresh pots in order to disarm .Also its takes a good bit of TIME to find people with stuff worth stealing its not like you can just log on your theif for 5 mins and find people with valuables to steal most people protect there stuff by covering it or puting it a locked box or a traped box.

What expensive weapons and armor are required for stealing? Is there a Wallet Slayer I'm not aware of? Or the thousands of gold worth of regs and pots? Or a pet worth a couple mil? Tell me more about how a couple pouches and a kiddie bag of regs is a big risk. I mean...seriously.

 

[VFingerDiscount]

Holy shit dude a thief can grab 8 stones max from you and then he's permagray to you. Quit fucking crying and learn the game.

signature field is blank

 

[Messremb]

Holy shit dude a thief can grab 8 stones max from you and then he's permagray to you. Quit fucking crying and learn the game.

signature field is blank

I think you may not be qualified to talk about thieves. 10 stone max when target stealing. Not sure what the random steal max is but is at least 12 stones.

 

[MortalSword]

Holy shit dude a thief can grab 8 stones max from you and then he's permagray to you. Quit fucking crying and learn the game.

signature field is blank

Pass.

 

[Karl Sagan]

oh great another butt hurt nerf stealing thread

*looks at join date*

*crumples up thread and throws it in the trash*

learn to play bud. thieves have been nerfed multiple times, playstyles ruined, and its still not enough because fuckwits like you can't take 1 minute to put your precious regs and arrows in a locked box. gimme a fucking break.

 

[MortalSword]

oh great another butt hurt nerf stealing thread

*looks at join date*

*crumples up thread and throws it in the trash*

learn to play bud. thieves have been nerfed multiple times, playstyles ruined, and its still not enough because fuckwits like you can't take 1 minute to put your precious regs and arrows in a locked box. gimme a fucking break.

Yes, l2play is the correct answer. Another startling addition to the worthless argument brigade. Because my join date for this server changes the accuracy of my observations and experience with UO. Except that Messremb had some quality feedback, is a well established player here, so let's tell him to l2play?

Read the words I wrote. I don't give a single shit about what has been stolen from me. Come back when you have a better argument.

 

[Karl Sagan]

Yes, l2play is the correct answer. Another startling addition to the worthless argument brigade. Because my join date for this server changes the accuracy of my observations and experience with UO. Except that Messremb had some quality feedback, is a well established player here, so let's tell him to l2play?

Read the words I wrote. I don't give a single shit about what has been stolen from me. Come back when you have a better argument.

If you would learn how to play its actually very easy to protect youself from thieves. UO is about balance and its VERY simple to protect yourself. Here it is:

1) put anything valuable in a locked box

and that's it. That's all it takes to stop thieves. Now I understand that that may be exceedingly difficult to do, but that is the counter to thieves.

So yes, basically learn to play instead of crying on the forums asking for a nerf of a class you don't understand.

Also, read what messremb said: Thieves are balanced by multiple mechanics on UOF.

 

[Akillah]

TL;DR

The answer is...NO.

 

[Karl Sagan]

TL;DR

The answer is...NO.

ITS NEVER THAT SIMPLE DABS

ITS ALWAYS GOTTA BE EXPLAINED 50 TIMES, 50 DIFFERENT WAYS, AND THEY STILL DONT GET IT

 

[God.RG]

Yes, l2play is the correct answer. Another startling addition to the worthless argument brigade. Because my join date for this server changes the accuracy of my observations and experience with UO. Except that Messremb had some quality feedback, is a well established player here, so let's tell him to l2play?

Read the words I wrote. I don't give a single shit about what has been stolen from me. Come back when you have a better argument.

i have yet to see a valid argument from your side.
thieves have already been nerfed to shit here.

 

[MortalSword]

If you would learn how to play its actually very easy to protect youself from thieves. UO is about balance and its VERY simple to protect yourself. Here it is:

1) put anything valuable in a locked box

and that's it. That's all it takes to stop thieves. Now I understand that that may be exceedingly difficult to do, but that is the counter to thieves.

So yes, basically learn to play instead of crying on the forums asking for a nerf of a class you don't understand.

Also, read what messremb said: Thieves are balanced by multiple mechanics on UOF.

Keep shouting, and being condescending. Did you know that the louder you shout, the more right your argument is?

When you have a legitimate response to any of the points raised in the thread, then please let me know. I'm happy to concede that my proposition may be off the mark and not what would help balance the template, but it was at it's core an attempt at constructive discourse.

That's the problem with people like you. You don't have intelligent conversations about anything. You just like to shout louder than the other guy, because obviously you are right by default. Anyone who thinks that perhaps there is an issue that could be at least looked at, is an idiot who doesn't know how to play the game right? How could they possible know anything, they don't think like you do.

As far as I'm concerned there are a couple people in this thread who have posted meaningful comments. Messremb and Sommerella in particular. They both play thieves, and they both had insight. Messremb offered a fair point, and Somm fought hard for her stance. I respect that. Karl, you've done nothing but shout down at me.

The thing about this topic, in which some people have made fair points in the past is that most of the best things to steal are protected one way or another. Some things slip through the cracks, such as Skill Scrolls, particularly the really valuable ones. Veteran players will learn one way or the other how to protect against thieves. My method is to avoid WBB generally, but there are others as mentioned above. The big thing here is there is a population of players who don't have this knowledge, and that is new players to the shard. Fact is, thieving rules are very different here than OSI or other shards. New players don't know that. So it's the new players who are getting items lifted from them, items that many of us would only be mildly annoyed about, such as regs, arrows/bolts, weapons and armor. To us this is nothing, but to those new players that can represent hours of effort put in to getting started here. Traditionally WBB is the main hub of any shard, and I know for a fact that most shard Admins want people to congregate there. Except right now, we have multiple thieves treating WBB like their own personal ATM, and alot of new people to the shard have no idea what is hitting them. So on top of the fact that leaving town is a tremendous risk for them until they learn the patterns of PKs etc, but now the main hub, in the main town, is a thieves den. Interesting design choice on this shard is that docks is a no thieving safe zone, which is a great idea to have one. The disconnect from my perspective, is why is the no thieving zone the docks area, where it is mostly Veterans who congregate there, because new players don't really know about it. It is a custom area. Why is the main hub not the safe zone, and the other banks around the world the places where you may risk your possessions if you are not careful, you know, those hubs populated by people who know the server. I think it would make alot of sense to swap zones, because the people who congregate on the docks to watch the duels etc are better prepared to protect themselves, the main hub can be safely populated and look busy (which is great for the shard's PR) and new players have a chance to ease into the unique risks presented on this shard. Also, I think the docks is a much more exciting place for thieves to be pushed to, because it has a choke point, and they can't just run around all of Brit with no restraint. That may not be the answer, because it is likely people would stop going to the docks if WBB was the safe zone.

That novel length paragraph is an example of how you can explore a feature or issue on a shard like this, and have some constructive perspective before you make any decisions. In the end the correct decision is probably not to change the mount issue, nor to swap safe zones, but perhaps to implement Messremb's point that instant banking is a bit extreme.


All of that being said, I'm not sure why some of you are so addicted to keeping UO the most toxic, inbred community in gaming. Every time I've played a shard of UO, there is this loud, vocal community of people who shout and shit all over anyone outside their social circle, act like dickbags to each other and everyone else, and generally make UO into an extremely shitty experience for anyone who doesn't align with their "gg l2play *****" attitudes. The game is almost twenty years old, presumably most of you are in your late twenties/early thirties, and probably should have outgrown being a juvenile cockbag. I guess not.

Long story short here, there are suddenly a lot of bottom feeders at WBB, and they are only hurting the new community. You know....those people that bring fresh lifeblood to the shard and generally a healthy stream of dono to keep it going. That's ok though, keep propagating a locker room hazing mentality to anyone who dares speak up out of turn.

 

[MortalSword]

i have yet to see a valid argument from your side.
thieves have already been nerfed to shit here.

Except that key skills to the thief template function completely different here than other shards. Stealth is different, stealing rules are different. What the thieves could target for value is different, and the length of time it takes to become a fleshed out temptlate thief is way faster than many shards. Keep that in mind. I don't have a problem with you tyler, so you've got no reason to shout me down. If you want to explain your perspective, and illuminate me on what you think is unfair towards thieves right now, please do. I'm open to seeing what you have to say, Somm fought to prove her points, and kept it mostly constructive, and I respect the hell out of that. I'd be happy to take in your perspective too, assuming you can refrain from telling me to qq for five minutes. I'm not trying to take anyone's toys away here, I'm trying to make sure it's not too easy for someone else to do it without restraint.