Stat Loss Suggestion

[Sir.]

You say there is an imbalance with pks on this shard. To me it seems like there are less pks right now then there has been for the past few years. So it could be the other way around then. Maybe it's time to pull back on some of the penalties on reds(Let them use wands).

You're also saying you don't want to "remove reds" but all your suggestions acutally boil down to making the pk char not playable.

The imablance you are probably seeing is the skill level/templates/mindset of the majority of your knights(and the noob pvm players) vs the pk guilds they are encountering in the dungeons.

This reply shows what im talkin about. A red elitist mentality where everyone but him and his crew are noobs. I bet hes one that res kills and foul mouths those new players he kills... this is why i ignored u the first time man. Dont reply with anything else if its not actually constructive like Phire and Khaj

 

[drasked]

Can we please get more intellectual feedback?

Ive read through this thread and it's unclear to me what problem we are trying to fix here. Hardly anyone play red these days and if they do, they are generally hours away from getting statted.

 

[thestand]

This reply shows what im talkin about.

I'm just calling it like I see it.

I'm normally the exact opposite of all that jazz you ranted about.

... stat loss,inability to play chars is going to be affecting a lot more people than just the "hyper PvP centric" players that aren't playing the game the way you want them to.

 

[Zog'orium]

I respect everyone's opinion on this topic. Here are my thoughts. I recently worked up my meta pet to level 4 (almost 5) and had the pleasure of being attacked by a single red one time. I did have a few different blue char's attack my pets and try to lure them away a couple of times, but that is another issue HAR! I really don't think there is a red problem on this shard. Other than some very dedicated red players I think most blue char's have a red or two that they play occasionally or log into whenever they need to defend themselves. I wish the game still had 300k players and a red around every corner and behind every bush. Maybe stat loss was needed when you couldn't even leave city limits without dying but I just don't see the need now.

 

[girana]

Ive read through this thread and it's unclear to me what problem we are trying to fix here. Hardly anyone play red these days and if they do, they are generally hours away from getting statted.

because this thread isnt about a problem its about a small sympton of the big problem skilled vet vs unskill vet // new player.

and dosnt matter what you change you cant fix it in a free sandbox world.

Everything that get made harder the skillfull player learns fast a new way but for the not so good players it gets impossible.

It seems that too often the PvP centric/hyper competitive players here forget that there is more to this game than "just PvP". They treat it like a drawn out MOBA moreso than an RPG and forget all the other parts of the game, and without those parts this game is not UO anymore.

Imagining we are in a role in a Role Playing Game (thats what RPG means to u guys who havent figured it out yet)... murderers are outcasts, the worst of criminals. Why would they have benefits of good law abiding citizens in any way? Thats the "role" reds chose. How is it fair that murder is legal and ok? It should be possible but not "ok" as seen by "the law of the land", no?

a)most pks arnt pvp players.

b)i see you point from the rpg view bit from the buissnes view it dont work.

 

[Sir.]

@thestand
players aren't play the game like "i want them to"?!?! Alright, where's that button... I see the Unlike button and the Reply but-- oh, there it is...

 

[khajja]

Sir, I'm 100% on board with no reds in towns (except Bucs Den). It makes sense from the RP side and I don't think it would harm pvp. I have very fond memories of bridge red vs blue fights and have as a result, always been on board with the no-cut zone. However, a blue can't attack a red and retreat into town as now the red can chase them down. No reds in town would grant more safety to blues 'trying out' pvp at bridge. Then again, glory days fights didn't have voice communication so maybe I'm with Girana there.

If reds are allowed in town, I see no reason why they should be barred from militia. It's fine if you want to differentiate between a pk and a pvper, but a red militia/faction is both.

I don't have a problem with more murders carrying over to more stat time, provided it resets to some degree on each stat. My issue is with it increasing 'exponentially'. A linear increase seems more reasonable and less likely to promote abuses like noto-pking or self-statting. One method they tried in the past was making stat account-wide, essentially limiting each player to 3 reds. Hard thing to implement this late in the game when people have invested so much effort into their builds.

What pks do you see in booty dungeon? Or are you mainly in orc dungeon? From what I hear the design of booty makes it a nightmare for pks. I also don't know that many pks travel outside of hotspots (I know I don't).


The great thing about a sandbox is that there are so many ways to find enjoyment.

 

[Torrun]

From a discussion in the UOF Disco last night, I made a suggestion that got a lot of backlash, and from that I had to take the constructive criticism of some, and dig through the piles of troll shit of others, to re-evaluate the suggestion itself for a refined, less radical version. Here it is.

------------------
No stat loss is permanent.
Stat loss time is based on murder counts.
Time for murder counts should be exponential in growth, but within reason.
There should be no cap to the amount of time you can work up - PK responsibly.
Insert @Iniak 's idea here to make bounty price roof scale with murder counts.
You should not be able to delete a red character if they have over x murder counts (whatever number works).
You should not be allowed in towns if you are a red.
You should not be allowed to defend a town in militias if you are red because you shouldn't be allowed in guard zones to help separate real PvPers from plain old PKs.
------------------

Instinctively, so many people do not read what is really being said, and think I am saying "remove reds" or "force reds to play a certain way" or "harshly penalize reds just for being red" and asinine suggestions of this nature. This is not the case at all; I truly enjoy the presence of PK's on this shard, but we are imbalanced.

The fact is, many people have voiced that they think this game is entirely about PvP and if you think otherwise, go play another game. These people fail to see the "wholeness" of UO and what makes it fun for everyone, and most likely are the trash-talking trolls and griefers we often encounter here without concept of what an RPG even is. These closed minded opinions and comments are not needed here, so please refrain if you have nothing constructive to suggest. If you disagree, please explain why with some indication of at least a modest education.

Others have stated that they think more stat just creates less activity. Not sure I understand this one as there are maaaaany other things to do in UO and if "all" you do is PK, well, maybe it's good you take a break sometimes and let others do their thing too. I keep getting the reaction of offense from reds with this because they think I'm suggesting to affect their gameplay in some way; uh, yes, I am, because it's only fair due to the fact that you constantly affect others gameplay, in a negative way, and don't give 2 shites let alone have any decency to treat that player well after you've just killed them for no reason and took their gear then called them a noob... This mentality and type of player is toxic for the entire community, I don't care how "much they play"... its bad.

This game is a "dynamic" meaning that it has many facets that all intertwine in some way to make a balanced whole. If we keep "adding systems" to this dynamic like custom bounty hunters or jail quests and complex structures of this nature, we are going to throw off the balance sooner or later. Red lives matter, I get it, but so do blues, crafters, fisherman, RPers, collectors; everyone.

The truth of the matter is we are playing an RPG called Ultima Online in a world setting where you don't have to RP to experience it but you have to accept all of it to be any kind of positive impact on the shard/community no matter what your role is. It's not PvP Online, it's not called PK Online or Magery Online. It's Ultima Online. Solidify that in the mind.

Do these suggestions make sense in an RPG world where you can totally affect another players gameplay experience by murdering them? I don't see the suggestion disallowing or forcing PK's to play in any different way, it just adds a rush to their experience and help balance the red to blue ratio of late. The bottom line is not about pixels or losing gear; it's about how we treat one another in a game that affects the human behind the screen and thus affects the entire community/shard that is the last remaining hope for UO in this era to keep going. I never want to see reds/PK's go away, but I do want to see a balance to keep the entire dynamic whole. I suggest these changes because it is simple and does not add more flour to an already bad batch of dough so to speak; change the original recipe vs adding more ingredients.

I think you're losing the argument because this comes off, though I understand it isn't intended too, as penalizing reds only. We are not acknowledging that blues can fight this without changing game mechanics.

I agree with some of what you've stated and actually rarely have pk'd here because I find role play more intriguing for now, that said the game has to accommodate those that only want to pvp/pk without penalizing too harshly. I have thoughts and can update after work but to move this along there needs to 've acknowledgment that when blues band together the fact that someone is red doesn't matter.

 

[halygon]

Just throwing something out there...

I always like the idea that we track total number kills (we already kind of are) and use that as a basis for perma red -- ie regardless of how many hours you burn off, if you hit X number of PKs, you are perma red. Idea is to curb blue pking and enforce actual PKs, without of course preventing blue PKing from happening - cause it should.

 

[girana]

Just throwing something out there...

I always like the idea that we track total number kills (we already kind of are) and use that as a basis for perma red -- ie regardless of how many hours you burn off, if you hit X number of PKs, you are perma red. Idea is to curb blue pking and enforce actual PKs, without of course preventing blue PKing from happening - cause it should.

wont work i just would deleted permareds

 

[girana]

wont work i just would deleted permareds

+ i already doing it quite often because i am to lazy to burn counts

 

[halygon]

wont work i just would deleted permareds

+ i already doing it quite often because i am to lazy to burn counts

Thank you for contributing to the economy.

 

[thestand]

I would like to see more incentives to kill reds instead of more punishments.

 

[girana]

Thank you for contributing to the economy.

i help were i can.


well with the new change all solo pks will quit but it wont stop the big guilds running in big groups pking but hey at least we got rid of the streamers i hope that was the intention of the change.

 

[De Medici]

I think blue pking should get fixed. Yes it makes sense that you can blue pk but only from time to time. If you have 4 blue pvp chars you can blue pk 4 times per day by letting chars loged in, without turning red. There is especially one guild ( I won't say the name) which excessivly exploits these possibilities for champ raids.

If you choose to kill players frequently and on a regular base you should get red and live with the consequences.

I would rather increase the time needed to reduce your counts (24h per count atm) then making reds perma red.

Secondly, the pk risks: as the ingame gm of the guild which has by far the most reds on the roster on uof I can only state that the risks are very(!) low. Most of our players have more than 1 red so its very rare you cant pk cause your red is statted. I personally (!) would increase the risks for playing red. Its to easy to grief noobs in despise etc...

Tbh I would say the risk is actually zero what is also consistent with the observation that most reds dont wanne pay 25k to buy their heads back. Just go on an other red and you are good to go.

 

[Zog'orium]

I think blue pking should get fixed. Yes it makes sense that you can blue pk but only from time to time. If you have 4 blue pvp chars you can blue pk 4 times per day by letting chars loged in, without turning red. There is especially one guild ( I won't say the name) which excessivly exploits these possibilities for champ raids.

If you choose to kill players frequently and on a regular base you should get red and live with the consequences.

I would rather increase the time needed to reduce your counts (24h per count atm) then making reds perma red.

Secondly, the pk risks: as the ingame gm of the guild which has by far the most reds on the roster on uof I can only state that the risks are very(!) low. Most of our players have more than 1 red so its very rare you cant pk cause your red is statted. I personally (!) would increase the risks for playing red. Its to easy to grief noobs in despise etc...

Tbh I would say the risk is actually zero what is also consistent with the observation that most reds dont wanne pay 25k to buy their heads back. Just go on an other red and you are good to go.

We are a 100 percent red roster. Yours?

 

[girana]

i doubt $n$ has close to most reds on the roster

 

[De Medici]

I said we have the most reds in the guild roster. Not the highest pecentage. 600 chars and probably 100 - 150 reds.

 

[Torrun]

So let me address the various items you mention:



1. No stat loss is permentant: Agree there should not be permanent stat loss. If so you could easily begin griefing red players to the point that they won’t be played.

2. Stat loss time is based on murder counts: Agree. There should be a sliding scale for stat loss. For example 1 – 25 murders you get 15 minutes, 25 – 50, 30 minutes, 50 – 100 1hr, 100+ 2 hours. I’m not saying these numbers are accurate just that it should slide and at some point should cap.

3. Time for murder counts (I’m assuming time to work a count off) should be exponential in growth, but within reason: I agree with this.

4. There should be no cap to the amount of time you can work up – PK Responsibly: Agree.

5. Insert @iniak’s idea here to make bounty price roof scale with murder counts: Agree.

6. You should not be able to delete a red character if they have over x murder counts: Disagree with this one. You should be able to delete a character any time you want.

7. You should not be allowed in towns if you are red: I agree with the premise itself, but the server pop needs to be larger before this is implemented. I have seen many occasions where reds in town have invited newer players to participate in PVP where they otherwise would not have. If the server pop was bigger I could see limiting reds to Bucs.

8. You should not be allowed to defend a town in militias if you are red because you shouldn’t be allowed in guard zones to help separate real PvPers from plain old PKs: Would agree if server population was larger. Though I would debate how this would separate real PvPers from plain old PKs.

Like you I enjoy RP, though I still love PVP. For years PVP was my bread and butter with UO and fought both as an underdog and as a member of large successful PVP groups (both before and after AOS was out). I believe, I’m assuming though because you never state what your issue is, that I probably fell into this group of people on official servers at various times. Especially during my time on Catskill fighting against CHAMPS and later as one of the earlier and longer term members of SeX (SX when we were forced to change guild name). There were times where I or a group of us would roll through people and res them get them back up and going and move along. At other times admittedly I was a douche and reskilled, dry looted for no other reason than to be a douche, etc. That all fits within the elements of RPG in UO though. When I wasn’t doing that I was often in Paxlair or some other RP establishment and nobody knew that I was the other guy in SX that just raided their champ, talked shit and made them so furious they quit playing for a while. UO is a game of infinite possibilities and playstyles. It is not purely an RPG and to think that people who only enjoy the PVP aspect of this should find another game to play is a part of the problem with these arguments. No matter which side is being fought these arguments are made with grand gestures that encompass entire styles of play but never truly try to fix the root issues or acknowledge when there are already solutions to the problems. The wholeness of UO isn’t for everyone, just like the life of just PVP isn’t all there is for you or me. Some people could care less about RP and I’m fine with that. I can RP my way out of it. Is it tiring to do? Sure, but I do not want people to conform to my playing style.



From this post (I’ve not looked back at the disco convo), it just states we must change the playstyle of a group of people without offering a reason why you feel this way or what aspect it is of their playstyle that you disagree with. If we truly want a constructive convo and to come to a true solution do a cause effect diagram, the 5 whys, etc. Get to the true root cause of the issue state it, acknowledge ways that it can already be addressed (if they exist in game), and then discuss the fixes. Its all got to be laid bare on the table otherwise people will see it as a rant (though many still will as that’s human nature). If you notice the solutions people are all over the board, some have mentioned blue PKs (agree there are problems here) others focus on all murders. Which is the problem or is it both?



Sorry for typos or rambling. Stuck on a boring conference call at work.

 

[girana]

all that will not stop the big zerg guilds from running in dungeons with 10 pks

it only will remove the solo streamer pks like poptart.