Stat Loss Suggestion

Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
From a discussion in the UOF Disco last night, I made a suggestion that got a lot of backlash, and from that I had to take the constructive criticism of some, and dig through the piles of troll shit of others, to re-evaluate the suggestion itself for a refined, less radical version. Here it is.

------------------
No stat loss is permanent.
Stat loss time is based on murder counts.
Time for murder counts should be exponential in growth, but within reason.
There should be no cap to the amount of time you can work up - PK responsibly.
Insert @Iniak 's idea here to make bounty price roof scale with murder counts.
You should not be able to delete a red character if they have over x murder counts (whatever number works).
You should not be allowed in towns if you are a red.
You should not be allowed to defend a town in militias if you are red because you shouldn't be allowed in guard zones to help separate real PvPers from plain old PKs.
------------------

Instinctively, so many people do not read what is really being said, and think I am saying "remove reds" or "force reds to play a certain way" or "harshly penalize reds just for being red" and asinine suggestions of this nature. This is not the case at all; I truly enjoy the presence of PK's on this shard, but we are imbalanced.

The fact is, many people have voiced that they think this game is entirely about PvP and if you think otherwise, go play another game. These people fail to see the "wholeness" of UO and what makes it fun for everyone, and most likely are the trash-talking trolls and griefers we often encounter here without concept of what an RPG even is. These closed minded opinions and comments are not needed here, so please refrain if you have nothing constructive to suggest. If you disagree, please explain why with some indication of at least a modest education.

Others have stated that they think more stat just creates less activity. Not sure I understand this one as there are maaaaany other things to do in UO and if "all" you do is PK, well, maybe it's good you take a break sometimes and let others do their thing too. I keep getting the reaction of offense from reds with this because they think I'm suggesting to affect their gameplay in some way; uh, yes, I am, because it's only fair due to the fact that you constantly affect others gameplay, in a negative way, and don't give 2 shites let alone have any decency to treat that player well after you've just killed them for no reason and took their gear then called them a noob... This mentality and type of player is toxic for the entire community, I don't care how "much they play"... its bad.

This game is a "dynamic" meaning that it has many facets that all intertwine in some way to make a balanced whole. If we keep "adding systems" to this dynamic like custom bounty hunters or jail quests and complex structures of this nature, we are going to throw off the balance sooner or later. Red lives matter, I get it, but so do blues, crafters, fisherman, RPers, collectors; everyone.

The truth of the matter is we are playing an RPG called Ultima Online in a world setting where you don't have to RP to experience it but you have to accept all of it to be any kind of positive impact on the shard/community no matter what your role is. It's not PvP Online, it's not called PK Online or Magery Online. It's Ultima Online. Solidify that in the mind.

Do these suggestions make sense in an RPG world where you can totally affect another players gameplay experience by murdering them? I don't see the suggestion disallowing or forcing PK's to play in any different way, it just adds a rush to their experience and help balance the red to blue ratio of late. The bottom line is not about pixels or losing gear; it's about how we treat one another in a game that affects the human behind the screen and thus affects the entire community/shard that is the last remaining hope for UO in this era to keep going. I never want to see reds/PK's go away, but I do want to see a balance to keep the entire dynamic whole. I suggest these changes because it is simple and does not add more flour to an already bad batch of dough so to speak; change the original recipe vs adding more ingredients.
 
PhireHawk

PhireHawk

Adept
OSI was 8 hours per murder starting with 5 onward. If you had 150 murders you were responsible for 8 hours on 145 of them (1,160 hours - or just over 48 days). That penalty deterred a lot of people (not me, hehe) from playing that style of game. But, if the char was too far into it, you deleted him and started over if you died. I had a red on Sonoma who died with 1,671 murders which is well over 13,000 hours worth of in game time or a year and a half. Making it so that character can't be deleted, I think is stretching it.

As a guy who's played a red forever, I agree with @Sir. that something should be done to create a better balance - I'm not sure if restricting character deletion and a progressive stat loss system at the same time necessarily creates that balance. To me that shifts it quite rigidly in the other direction.

At the same time, 48 hours max doesn't seem harsh enough.

One thing I mentioned during that discussion the other night was in regards to looting. If there was a way to make it so stat loss was linked to whether a corpse is looted or not - and not just by the murderer to prevent people bringing a loot character around while they murder. If a blue is looted following a murder, and anybody flags criminal as a result of the body being looted, then the murder faces stat loss if killed. If the body is left alone, and the PK is simply doing his thing but letting people keep their items, the stat loss is avoidable.

Risk vs Reward.

The only way to fairly implement a system like this, is a pop-up box that the murderer must check an option for indicating if he's going to loot or not. If he opts to not loot, then the body becomes "Trammelized" and can't be looted. This keeps the PK from looting, and also keeps the murdered from bringing in an alt or a friend to loot and "frame" the PK.
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
Hmm aye, ok, so let's say we remove the whole "can't delete a red character".. I can settle with that :D

But, in defense of the reds, I like the idea of "no loot" but what if the red has to rez that person in order to avoid the loss as well? Again, it's a very generous and fair idea in terms of the pixels, but of the players experience too then? It may even encourage more "good job" comments from the PKs when they do res an opponent if they are just out for a good fight, not the loot, aye? Just a thought to add to a good chunk of feedback, thanks for taking the time to be constructive @PhireHawk !
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
Err wait I forgot a main part of that (in a rush about to leave for work)...
In defense of the reds, they gotta make some kinda living off of some pixels tho right? What if gold only were exempt from this, and then they had to rez the player too... that's what i meant :D
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
Talmanes actually made a good point that there are peak hours of play when they are everywhere and times when they (and most everyone else) are scarce. Hard to find "the right time all the time"
 
khajja

khajja

Master
Sir. said:
help balance the red to blue ratio of late
Click to expand...

This reminds me of the great star wars prequel when everybody says anakin will bring balance to the force at a time when the jedi were firmly in control. I don't see the need of pk changes given their rarity in non-pk hotspots and availability of dungeons with restricted entrances (ghost defense) and no mount dungeons (tamer dominance)


Restricting deletion of a character seems way overboard.
I don't see the logic behind making the length of counts exponential either in rational basis or intended effect, as it would make noto-pk'ing much more dominant (which is much worse than red pk'ing)
I'm fine with no reds in town, but I believe Shane likes reds at the bank which creates more action.
'You should not be allowed to defend a town in militias if you are red because you shouldn't be allowed in guard zones to help separate real PvPers from plain old PKs.' really doesn't make sense. If you say no reds in town, fine. That's the prior point. But the idea that a red militia member is a plain old PK while a blue militia member is a real PvPer? A red in town is putting himself in harms way more than any other and is more of a real PvPer than a militia member as he welcomes an attack from ANYONE with no pretense of a fair fight or a known enemy.
 
thestand

thestand

Grandmaster
You say there is an imbalance with pks on this shard. To me it seems like there are less pks right now then there has been for the past few years. So it could be the other way around then. Maybe it's time to pull back on some of the penalties on reds(Let them use wands).

You're also saying you don't want to "remove reds" but all your suggestions acutally boil down to making the pk char not playable.

The imablance you are probably seeing is the skill level/templates/mindset of the majority of your knights(and the noob pvm players) vs the pk guilds they are encountering in the dungeons.
 
PhireHawk

PhireHawk

Adept
There is for sure a separation in skills between people who PvP exclusively and people who PvM exclusively. That goes without saying- and that's part of the draw in this game. It's skill based. It's not about who has the best gear on - there is a method to the mayhem. I like that, we all like that.

But, don't even pretend that just because there aren't packs of reds stalking every inch of the map all the time, that they aren't there. I'd bet that most everybody on the server has at least 1 red character (I have 2) who gets used in various situations. Maybe somebody is at your spawn - so you get your red and murder them. Maybe the Swamp Dragoon just spawned - so you get your red and murder the competition. Maybe you just like to murder people and take their stuff.

To be clear - all of those are part of UO. Nobody is suggesting that anything be done to eliminate that practice. Just that the risks of partaking in that style of play be modified somewhat. Right now, it's very easy to be red. If you're honest, you know and abuse that. I know I do.
 
G

girana

Grandmaster
its not about red vs blue


its about skilled vet vs non skilled players

dosnt matter what you change skilled vets will always overtake non skilled players
 
Lexington

Lexington

Grandmaster
girana said:
in what guilds are these pks ?
Click to expand...

Ice, City. PKP and a group with their guild tag hidden have been rolling some of the hot spots pretty regular lately. North American prime time is probably why you're not seeing them. Aside from the no name guys most aren't dry looting.
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
If you wanna play a red but are afraid of consequences, play blue. all the red defenses im hearing sound like fear. Thats not a trait of a predator, but a bottom feeder. Few comments here are constructive. One person so far has been honest about it. Can we please get more intellectual feedback? I've shown willingness to discuss less brash consequence and even defended reds needing some way to be able to make some profit from PKing. If this is too much for red players to even discuss with potential constructiveness, i think the point has already been made...
 
khajja

khajja

Master
Sir. said:
If you wanna play a red but are afraid of consequences, play blue. all the red defenses im hearing sound like fear. Thats not a trait of a predator, but a bottom feeder. Few comments here are constructive. One person so far has been honest about it. Can we please get more intellectual feedback? I've shown willingness to discuss less brash consequence and even defended reds needing some way to be able to make some profit from PKing. If this is too much for red players to even discuss with potential constructiveness, i think the point has already been made...
Click to expand...
i gave rationale for disagreements with specific elements of your proposal and you did not respond to any of them, but hand-waived every comment away except the one person that agreed with you. seems you are unwilling to actually discuss.
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
khajja said:
i gave rationale for disagreements with specific elements of your proposal and you did not respond to any of them, but hand-waived every comment away except the one person that agreed with you. seems you are unwilling to actually discuss.
Click to expand...

You're right, i sincerely apologize for overlooking that post. You did put thought into that and i appreciate that, truly. *hangs head in shame*

I must disagree with any such thing as tamer dominance in no mount areas; thats where im personally encountering PKs as often as mobs. However cool reference using star wars; starting to embody a "story" here now with reds and blues.

The reason behind exponential growth in time to murders is that it just makes sense. OSI did this as PhireHawk told us, but ok not being able to delete a red is a bit much; i digress on that one, but its only fair that the more people you kill the more time you gotta serve. Noto PKs will be on a limited kill count per day, which imo is one way to moderate the killing sprees.

As for the no reds in militias bit, it only supports no reds in town. Why should they defend a town if they cant be in it? Idea is to push more people into militias instead of aimless killing. And aye i think it by nature should help separate some PKs from PvPers; sorry but i think a PK is more of a coward than someone who will accept a duel or other meana of fighting with *honor*, though i do agree they are more vulnerable to attacka from anyone.

It seems that too often the PvP centric/hyper competitive players here forget that there is more to this game than "just PvP". They treat it like a drawn out MOBA moreso than an RPG and forget all the other parts of the game, and without those parts this game is not UO anymore.

Imagining we are in a role in a Role Playing Game (thats what RPG means to u guys who havent figured it out yet)... murderers are outcasts, the worst of criminals. Why would they have benefits of good law abiding citizens in any way? Thats the "role" reds chose. How is it fair that murder is legal and ok? It should be possible but not "ok" as seen by "the law of the land", no?
 
Sir.

Sir.

Grandmaster
thestand said:
You know, sometimes a person grows up believing they are a Knight. In reality they are a short order cook at a tavern in Trinsic.
Click to expand...
This guy here... u chalk it up to rpers and pvmers arebnt any good at pvp? Dont need ur input anymore thanks man..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top