Red/Murder System

Orgha

Apprentice
Instead of having to where a blue can turn in a head out of spite or to make a red wait two days to pk again, why not do this:
Red can negotiate with blue just like they can today. Up to the price on their head. If the blue decides to turn the head in anyway then the Red gets a message from the town guards asking for a bribe to prevent kill cap reduction.

Look at it this way. Back in the original osi shard murderers could only bank at bucs den and didn't lose stats on death. Just time ressing and restocking.

This two day timeout on reds imo is causing increased ganking due to fear of dying and resulting timeout.

Here's the balance.

Blues have the advantage of getting away easier if they are out matched. ( instant recall macro). Blues also get to load up on tressure by grinding dungeons and spawns.
Blues are at a disadvantage from surprise attacks, ganking, and being loaded with goodies from hunting. Unless they want to recall every few minutes ( not very fun and ruins the experience of dungeon exploration).

Reds have the advantage of traveling light and surpise attacks possibly with other pks.
They are at a disadvantage for having to pony up gold on death or else have their abilty to pk limited.

Think about this. You're an exceptional murder. You can just keep killing up to a higher limit per period of time. Bad pks or ones targeting easy people like resource collectors and new players won't benefit as much.

Just throwing numbers out. Let's say a pk can murder 10 people per day. If killed their limit drops by 1 person for either that period or the next.

Let's say a message like "Your soul can not bare the burden of another murder at this time".

Tweak the period to weekly or the number of counts to your liking but the whole point here is:

1. Pks will priortize kills and not just murder any random noob. Although their free to waste kills to their pleasing.
2. Pks will be limited allowing for increased farming without constant ten minute recalling.
3. Pks don't have to wait two days every time they die to murder again. The timeout is variable based on how good they are and how many they've killed recently.
4. Bounty system remains. Collecting a bounty means no more kills for that time period. Simply dying with no bounty collection means loss of one kill allowed for that Period
I'm typing this on my phone so bare with any typos.
 

Grizard

Adept
I have always been a fan of reducing the "Packs of reds" If 2 people + Attack someone then I think their time out or penalty should be increased.
Whatever that penalty may be. Maybe a solo can kill X per day, or if a group of 2 attack they can take out fewer people as the numbers are in their favor.

A similar system could be kept for multiple blues killing a red. Whatever penalty that is put on them is reduced based on them also getting "Ganked".
 

bane

Master
...
Look at it this way. Back in the original osi shard murderers could only bank at bucs den and didn't lose stats on death. Just time ressing and restocking.
....

Umm I don't think you ever played on old school OSI. Murderers couldn't rez without statloss until all their short term murder counts were macroed off (had to be in game as a ghost). That was 4 hours per count with no cap. It was faster for a lot of reds to just remake their character as they were looking at hundreds and hundreds of hours until they could rez with no stat loss. The penalty on this shard is completely care bear by comparison. If you can handle the penalty here then you have no business being a red.
 

Orgha

Apprentice
I'm talking well before T2A. I had a cousin that played hardcore pk named deathmirage way back in the day on Atlantic shard. Dying back then was no big deal. No counts. No bs. Just pking all day every day.

I know what you're referring to , but this goes back even further. When you couldn't 7x gm with ease because of no locks on skills or stats. And being red was based on your fame title (there was no karma).

This has nothing to do with tolerance for penalty. This has to do with making pks select targets wiser and encouraging more favorable encounters.

Do you think it's fun being ganked?
That's why everyone macro recalls. So much fun for both the pk and the blue. Pks get blue balls and end up taking it out on new players that dont know any better and end up quitting out of frustration and good blues have to instant recall every 10 mins. Great fun for everyone!*Sarcasm*

People complain about the server having a weak overall population (see t2a topics). Well no shit the population isn't that great. If i wasn't as familar and seasoned with the game in general i would probably quit too if playing meant getting killed every ten minutes to 7x pks. But even though i know to macro recall out, it gets old after the 10th time in one hour.

Sure young status protects new players for a little bit, but for true beginners not nearly long enough. It's great for vets new to the server though. But honestly it wouldn't ne neceasary to make youngs trammies if pks were encouraged to seek better targets.

Who wouldn't want to punch a baby in the face when there's no harm. Limit kills and some bad reds might still seek out beginners but you'll see less people dumping on a miner for 200 ingots or a new player on the server killing ratmen with 500gp and a regular katana and instead looking for 7x hunters with better loot.

I'm not suggesting we trammy miners. I can already see all the responses that have nothing to do with what I'm advocating.
 

Cack

Grandmaster
I'm talking well before T2A. I had a cousin that played hardcore pk named deathmirage way back in the day on Atlantic shard. Dying back then was no big deal. No counts. No bs. Just pking all day every day.

I know what you're referring to , but this goes back even further. When you couldn't 7x gm with ease because of no locks on skills or stats. And being red was based on your fame title (there was no karma).

This has nothing to do with tolerance for penalty. This has to do with making pks select targets wiser and encouraging more favorable encounters.

Do you think it's fun being ganked?
That's why everyone macro recalls. So much fun for both the pk and the blue. Pks get blue balls and end up taking it out on new players that dont know any better and end up quitting out of frustration and good blues have to instant recall every 10 mins. Great fun for everyone!*Sarcasm*

People complain about the server having a weak overall population (see t2a topics). Well no shit the population isn't that great. If i wasn't as familar and seasoned with the game in general i would probably quit too if playing meant getting killed every ten minutes to 7x pks. But even though i know to macro recall out, it gets old after the 10th time in one hour.

Sure young status protects new players for a little bit, but for true beginners not nearly long enough. It's great for vets new to the server though. But honestly it wouldn't ne neceasary to make youngs trammies if pks were encouraged to seek better targets.

Who wouldn't want to punch a baby in the face when there's no harm. Limit kills and some bad reds might still seek out beginners but you'll see less people dumping on a miner for 200 ingots or a new player on the server killing ratmen with 500gp and a regular katana and instead looking for 7x hunters with better loot.

I'm not suggesting we trammy miners. I can already see all the responses that have nothing to do with what I'm advocating.
Get out.
 

bane

Master
I'm talking well before T2A. I had a cousin that played hardcore pk named deathmirage way back in the day on Atlantic shard. Dying back then was no big deal. No counts. No bs. Just pking all day every day.

I know what you're referring to , but this goes back even further. When you couldn't 7x gm with ease because of no locks on skills or stats. And being red was based on your fame title (there was no karma).

This has nothing to do with tolerance for penalty. This has to do with making pks select targets wiser and encouraging more favorable encounters.

Do you think it's fun being ganked?
That's why everyone macro recalls. So much fun for both the pk and the blue. Pks get blue balls and end up taking it out on new players that dont know any better and end up quitting out of frustration and good blues have to instant recall every 10 mins. Great fun for everyone!*Sarcasm*

People complain about the server having a weak overall population (see t2a topics). Well no shit the population isn't that great. If i wasn't as familar and seasoned with the game in general i would probably quit too if playing meant getting killed every ten minutes to 7x pks. But even though i know to macro recall out, it gets old after the 10th time in one hour.

Sure young status protects new players for a little bit, but for true beginners not nearly long enough. It's great for vets new to the server though. But honestly it wouldn't ne neceasary to make youngs trammies if pks were encouraged to seek better targets.

Who wouldn't want to punch a baby in the face when there's no harm. Limit kills and some bad reds might still seek out beginners but you'll see less people dumping on a miner for 200 ingots or a new player on the server killing ratmen with 500gp and a regular katana and instead looking for 7x hunters with better loot.

I'm not suggesting we trammy miners. I can already see all the responses that have nothing to do with what I'm advocating.
That was only for like 6 months after OSI launch. Then they added the murder system. T2A was waaaay after the murder system.
 

Orgha

Apprentice
For those who don't remember what I'm talking about pre-murder count system:

"Notoriety:

  • When clicking on someone, their name appears red, gray, or blue, depending on the following:
    • if performing a bad action such as theft, attack, or snooping would lower your notoriety, they show in blue
    • if performing such an action on them would improve your notoriety, the name shows in red
    • if it would have no effect on your notoriety, it shows in gray
  • We fixed a problem whereby you could never regain good standing after crossing a threshold of being evil.
  • We corrected a problem whereby attacking untame but tamable animals affected your notoriety and could result in guards being called.
  • The 1/100 chance of notoriety increase has been removed, since there is now a notoriety time cap on improvement.
  • We regularized the notoriety title scale; this may result in your title having changed by one stage from what it was previously"

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/Ultima_Online_Patch_Notes_for_10/10/1997

Being Red back then had nothing to do with murder counts, short or long term. They didn't exist.

It wasn't until a later patch that stat loss and bounties started. See 12/09/1997 update below.

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/Ultima_Online_Patch_Notes_for_12/09/1997
 

Orgha

Apprentice
Another argument is that reds keep the value of gold up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really. They just displace the gold from the hunters. The gold still makes it into the economy.

Unless of course you're referring to the atrophy of the active players on the server. Then I'd presume as population goes down, then yes gold would become more scarce. And more useless. Who's left to trade with? lol....

BTW I'm not advocating something that screws PKs which seems to be the majority opinion here. To the contrary. I'm advocating a system whereby PKs target people based on their skill level and not simply harass players new and/or bad at this game. Like many other skill based games I've played, people get all cocky and say 'fuck you' to the bad player base (Which is the majority btw) and the game dies and even the pros have to retire the game because there is no one left to play with.

Let's talk in simple examples since a lot of people don't seem to understand:

Player1 is a pro blue
Player 2 is a noob blue
Player 3 is a pro red
Player 4 is a noob red

Hereby referred to as P# (e.g P1 for Player 1)

Let's say P1 encounters P3 or P4 individually in a dungeon raid. If P1 felt his character stands a chance and doesn't have a lot of loot to lose, they might fight back and win or die or if they feel there is too much risk or their build isn't well suited to PvP they macro recall. No problem here. Pks still making that gold "More Valuable". P1 moves around and doesn't see another PK for about half hour. Again this is normal. No issue. Now let's say P1 is not suited for PvP or simply not interested in it at the time, yet every 1-5 minutes there's another red no matter where he goes. This is not normal. This is quite frankly just annoying. That's what happens when you put too many people in a confined area on purpose. You get unusually high encounter rates and it becomes annoying, and don't think the PKs are having all the fun. They aren't. What's fun about watching people run away and macro recall? I guess it makes you feel ballin for a few minutes? *Sarcasm*

P1 will probably tough it out, at least till the server dies down enough. But P1 is a rare player.

Let's say this same story happens to P2 (Mr. Noob blue). They will almost always quit within a month. I know because I've tried to get friends into this game and within a month they drop it for this very reason on other shards.

Now you might be one of the inbreed idiots that think that's a good thing. But any educated person will realize this makes up a majority of the player base. And it is in fact the mass of noobs that make this game fun for everyone, blues and reds alike.

No one is saying not to kill noobs. Quite the opposite in fact. Kill them to your liking. Pks make this game what it is and make it more fun and interesting. However it becomes a problem when these noobs feel like they can't even enjoy the game due to constant harassment no matter where they go. And being noobs they aren't savy enough to know how to fix the problem so guess what, they quit. The server gradually dies. And all the ignorant hardasses are left with an empty server and no one to PK. Wonderful!
 
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Dellan

Grandmaster
Server usually dies because people reach end game and get bored, if they're not fed constantly with new content. Not because they get ganked by reds. Why the fuq all of you people play UO like it's singleplayer?? If there are packs of reds that hunt people, get together and form pack of blues that hunt them. If you do not wish to do such thing, hire someone to protect you. Pay a group to hunt reds. RP a little, dammit, this is fantasy world that's supposed to have player interactions. Otherwise, you have no right to cry about it. How come absolutely no one in this game recognises it is made to have people working together? If reds can gang up and oppress people, they're actually showing they understand what this game is about.
 

bane

Master
For those who don't remember what I'm talking about pre-murder count system:

"Notoriety:

  • When clicking on someone, their name appears red, gray, or blue, depending on the following:
    • if performing a bad action such as theft, attack, or snooping would lower your notoriety, they show in blue
    • if performing such an action on them would improve your notoriety, the name shows in red
    • if it would have no effect on your notoriety, it shows in gray
  • We fixed a problem whereby you could never regain good standing after crossing a threshold of being evil.
  • We corrected a problem whereby attacking untame but tamable animals affected your notoriety and could result in guards being called.
  • The 1/100 chance of notoriety increase has been removed, since there is now a notoriety time cap on improvement.
  • We regularized the notoriety title scale; this may result in your title having changed by one stage from what it was previously"

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/Ultima_Online_Patch_Notes_for_10/10/1997

Being Red back then had nothing to do with murder counts, short or long term. They didn't exist.

It wasn't until a later patch that stat loss and bounties started. See 12/09/1997 update below.

http://wiki.uosecondage.com/Ultima_Online_Patch_Notes_for_12/09/1997

LOL you realize that the patch notes you posted are 3 months after launch not 6 months. Just went to prove my point. Here is a link for you:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=when did ultima online launch

UO launched in September of 1997. The murder system came in 3 months later in December of 1997. T2A launched October 31st 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online:_The_Second_Age).

Hmm I wonder why it only took them 3 months to implement penalties for PKs. /s
 
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