PvP Balance - A Modest Proposal

[Xiulan]

I'm not sure how anyone can legitimately, with an unbiased opinion, be on the side of an argument saying that the defense talisman should retain it's bonuses to PvP.

Well then, I guess this is gonna blow your mind. I do not have a defense tali myself, I don't pvp, and the proposed change (if it was only for defense talis) could even benefit me in the sense of making certain pks slightly less strong. Yet I am still 100% against it.

What something was "intended for" matters, but what something actually does matters more. We are years down this road now. There was plenty of time to change things if staff felt they needed to be changed. It's not like they didn't know about it -- people were whining about talismans a year ago too.

This conversation only got revived because someone decided to go on the usual "hi I'm new and here's all my brilliant ideas about how you need to fix this shard to be more to my liking" trip and try to whip up a howling mob. Doesn't really seem like a pressing issue, nor worth alienating (and potentially losing) some of the most devoted players who have invested a ton.

Also doesn't seem worth the risk of winding up with sweeping changes that would affect all talis, builds and play styles, and make pvmers even more subject to griefing. You can talk about the subtle nuances of proposed changes all you want but the changes we actually get are usually pretty extreme.

 

[AngloSpanglo]

It was never supposed to be used in pvp anyways.

Wah.

Not everyone has been on the server for years and knows the origin of everything that exists here. Where on the wiki does it say "this talisman cannot be used to indirectly affect PvP"? The mechanics just are what they are, I saw no warning signs that the tali could be nerfed when I started it.

 

[AngloSpanglo]

While true I wont go as far as the "wah" but you can easily have more than 1 talisman the quest is repeatable right?

The point being is yes it was intended for pvm if you got it with intentions of using it for PvP that's not the developers fault by any means.

How is having more than one talisman relevant? It takes an insane amount of time and effort to finish a defense tali, I will never make another meta tali because the grind crushed my soul. I didn't get it to PK or to seek out PvP, but if my champs get raided and I can't fight back without losing my mob protection then it will remove 80% of the usefulness of the talisman to me.

 

[TyroneG]

I'm not sure how anyone can legitimately, with an unbiased opinion, be on the side of an argument saying that the defense talisman should retain it's bonuses to PvP. The ONLY argument I've seen so far is, we've put our heart and soul into grinding out this advantage, it can't go away. It has always been advertised as a PvM bonus only - and if you bought, and leveled it for the advantages in PvP, then consider it a bonus that you've kept it this long. But that's on you, not on UOF.

This advantage has to be removed, it's been said it could be tied to the combat flag (similar to recalling), if you attack, it disables your relic for 2 min, if you are the defender, you keep your relic, until you attack back, at which point yours is also disabled for 2 min. Resets on consecutive attacks, just like it does for recalling away.

I think the only thing to be discussed is how you roll it out - for those who have this stuck on a red character, I feel for you, and I think there should be some way for a 1 time transfer, within 2 weeks of the change, off a red char, to a blue char on the account.

Agree with this, but like @Young Star I think a 30 second timer would do the job.

 

[Genocide Pete]

Also doesn't seem worth the risk of winding up with sweeping changes that would affect all talis, builds and play styles, and make pvmers even more subject to griefing. You can talk about the subtle nuances of proposed changes all you want but the changes we actually get are usually pretty extreme.

When I first got here, I argued that blues should be able to intentionally hit other blues with explosion potions if they wish. That change eventually happened, but it somehow also turned into explosion potions hitting allies and guildmates. Eppy is an evil genie.

 

[Streets]

The problem is the longer they wait, no matter what course of action is taking, the end result will be worse.

If you wait to long and somehow make it not work in PvP, you will piss off those that have it and continue to level it.

If you wait to long and say "this is acceptable going forward and is just clever use of in game mechanics, you piss off people who where expecting a change.

One way or another it maybe a wise thing for @Shane or staff to state if this is fair/valid use or not so people can plan accordingly?

No matter what the decision a group will be butt hurt like a bandaid rip it off quick and let the pain subside. I think people anticipating is much like looking at that bandaid going "no it's gonna hurt " and staring at it rather than just doing what has to be done and getting it over with.

 

[Xiulan]

When I first got here, I argued that blues should be able to intentionally hit other blues with explosion potions if they wish. That change eventually happened, but it somehow also turned into explosion potions hitting allies and guildmates. Eppy is an evil genie.

Exactly. And these hapless noobs are trying to unleash the fury upon us all.

@Streets, those two groups are really not equivalent. One group put in a tremendous amount of effort based on existing mechanics, the other group is just complaining and doesn't even have a dog in the fight, you just want to play Playskool's My Perfect Shard (tm).

 

[Streets]

Exactly. And these hapless noobs are trying to unleash the fury upon us all.

@Streets, those two groups are really not equivalent. One group put in a tremendous amount of effort based on existing mechanics, the other group is just complaining and doesn't even have a dog in the fight, you just want to play Playskool's My Perfect Shard (tm).

I am not saying who matters more or whatever that's not even up for me to decide my point is no matter what happens some people are going to be extremely upset.

 

[Xiulan]

Streets, what do you have to be "extremely" upset about? What would you be losing, exactly, if the change you want wasn't implemented?

 

[Streets]

Streets, what do you have to be "extremely" upset about? What would you be losing, exactly, if the change you want wasn't implemented?

Again it doesn't matter what I want. I have suggested all kinds of ideas does not mean any of them will ever happen.

 

[baseball dad]

Trammies need a scapegoat for eating dirt so they blame a defense talisman and fragile pvp egos want to 1 button wand drop with less risks so they blame a defense talisman for dying.

My defence talisman (which only 1 of my chars actually has) is mainly used to help escape blue factioners who turn 1v1s into 1v4+ by running into mobs. In my defence i also do this on all my other chars who dont have a def tali but still get blamed for its merits that aren'teven on those chars. Alot of these wand mages are more used to running outside from brit to yew for 10 minutes straight with tree hack on rather than navigating monsters.

I cant think how many times ive seen blue ganking wand mages get nuked by paragons cause they were too busy pressing wand macros than watching that balron or elemental coming next to them.

And fyi, the red aggro from mobs hasnt been removed just edited. I.e it was once a red goes on screen all mobs aggro onto them, now it's only non aggrod mobs which is a huge advantage for our quivering snow flakes.

 

[Darkarna]

There is one way to get around the issue of the defence talisman, simply update any information regarding its usage in PVP.

Trammies need a scapegoat for eating dirt so they blame a defense talisman and fragile pvp egos want to 1 button wand drop with less risks so they blame a defense talisman for dying.

And fyi, the red aggro from mobs hasnt been removed just edited. I.e it was once a red goes on screen all mobs aggro onto them, now it's only non aggrod mobs which is a huge advantage for our quivering snow flakes.

Comments like this help no one, it is one thing being a stone cold, blue murdering bad-ass *AKA Neegan from The Walking Dead*, someone who roams the lands looking to exploit resources from them or their group, it is another being blatantly ignorant to how Ultima Online works, IE, you need those quivering snow-flakes to exploit, to get your kicks from when they bite the dust.

Don't blame people for bringing up the issue with defence talismans, it was said when they first came out that they wouldn't work with PVP, I saw the issue with them pretty much a month or so after the first of them hit high level and how the impact of having a high levelled talisman mixed with a few relics could pretty much nullify any tamer on the ground.

Description
The Meta Talisman is a wearable item obtained by completing a quest line which begins at a mysterious Ancient Statue of Power near Valor Shrine. The Meta Talisman gives warrior, archer, and mage style players special abilities as their talisman levels. Each talisman has a passive property and active abilities that are obtainable through relics. The talisman levels up as you kill creatures and the abilities of your talisman become stronger.

With these bonuses come some limitations:

• The talisman cannot be equipped by any character with greater than 50 musicianship or greater than 50 taming.
• Upon equipping a talisman there is a fifteen minute cool down before the skills or bonuses become active. To avoid this cool down, you can return to the Ancient Statue of Power and speak the words "I wish to pay tribute" which will take 10,000 gold pieces from your bank.
• There are armor and distance restrictions for each type. This are detailed further below for each type of talisman.
• The talisman skills and bonuses are not applicable against other players or pets.
• Talisman experience and relic ability gains are not possible in houses or on boats. A message will appear saying "You feel and icy chill as your talisman drains of some of its power". Monsters on boats will also not give gains.
• There is a maximum experience amount per creature that can be awarded to a given talisman. The bigger the creature, the greater the experience!

The above in bold, underlined and whatnot is the culprit. This pretty much contradicts what is going on and either needs to be updated to state that it can be used in PVP environments or changed so it does not.

All that aside, PVP needs to be balanced again anyway..

 

[Genocide Pete]

The talisman skills and bonuses are not applicable against other players or pets.

The above in bold, underlined and whatnot is the culprit. This pretty much contradicts what is going on and either needs to be updated to state that it can be used in PVP environments or changed so it does not.

"Berserker talismans increase your weapon damage by up to 50%. This bonus is not applicable against other players."

If I read the above statement, I would interpret it to mean that my weapon attacks against other players won't receive the 50% damage bonus from my berserker talisman. I think you'd have to suffer from an impressive level of confirmation bias to read it another way.

 

[Sparhawk]

Intentional or incidental, all talismans have scenario specific ways of influencing pvp.

Defence tali -mob/pet dmg negation
Zerker- phaseshift
Mage - Vivify buffed summons
Rogue -stealth run

Asking for any of them to be changed imo would set a bad precident. It's the nature of this sandbox game for people to do unusual and unexpected things with any and all of the items available. While clearly a lot of thought and testing went into the talismans creation/inception, just by the nature of the talismans unique abilities people will find ways of gaining advantage in some specific scenarios. Should candelabra be unusable by some as well, in case they are dropped to block an opponents path?

 

[Janesworld]

After reading this I noticed the only people that are against this proposed change that is very modest in my opinion, are the ones who are taking advantage of it and need it as a crutch like I stated one month ago

 

[AreYouKidden]

Intentional or incidental, all talismans have scenario specific ways of influencing pvp.

Defence tali -mob/pet dmg negation
Zerker- phaseshift
Mage - Vivify buffed summons
Rogue -stealth run

Asking for any of them to be changed imo would set a bad precident. It's the nature of this sandbox game for people to do unusual and unexpected things with any and all of the items available. While clearly a lot of thought and testing went into the talismans creation/inception, just by the nature of the talismans unique abilities people will find ways of gaining advantage in some specific scenarios. Should candelabra be unusable by some as well, in case they are dropped to block an opponents path?

While I fully believe if something isn't working as intended, it should be fixed, I have a real hard time debating your arguments here. Well put.

 

[drasked]

Should candelabra be unusable by some as well, in case they are dropped to block an opponents path?

Are you really comparing a 10 gold candelabra to an item that takes millions of gold and hundreds of hours?

To me UO pvp is good because it requires no grind. Now you see people getting tali's purely for pvp. The more common this becomes the more shitty it will get imo.

1 more year and it will be Dexers Forever (talisman edition)

 

[StegcO]

To me UO pvp is good because it requires no grind

THIS!!!

I dream a pvp scene where the only difference between 6 newbie against 6 veterans is only tactics (and a bit of luck)

We have champions, bosses and motm where we can use our talismans to incrase drop or lowering time to finish a champ, ecc. thanks to metapets and talisman staff can create hardest dungeons/boss ecc

pvp needs to remains virgin IMO

 

[AreYouKidden]

Thanks drasked & Stegco - that was the argument that wasn't coming to me earlier. One of my favorite memories of UO, and one of the best parts, was the fact that there was not a huge time factor, and no gear difference.. As a mage, some exceptional leather armor, and some regs, or as a melee, some exceptional plate/chain, and an exceptional weapon. Those were the items that got you into the party - those who carried higher end weapons were at a huge risk. When they brought insurance, and casting gear, and other stupid gear into PvP, they ruined it, because it became more about the items you had, versus a skill level. Gear dictates PvP in almost every MMO out there, and is what ruined PvP for me in every MMO out there.

With UOF some things are already different, like the sheer number of vanquishing items out there, if a person isn't using an exceptional vanq to PvP with, they are likely using an exceptional power weapon. But at least everyone has access to those items as they can purchase them. The talismans are a huge grind of time, and not everyone has them, and I think that's where/why I want to see a line drawn.

And to Sparhawk's point - all the talismans have some sort of small advantage - I think they should all be removed.

 

[Xiulan]

After reading this I noticed the only people that are against this proposed change that is very modest in my opinion, are the ones who are taking advantage of it and need it as a crutch like I stated one month ago

People who have put in the effort to make a tali are the only ones whose comments are really relevant and worth taking seriously here.

Everything else on this thread is just the usual UO stuff of newbies wanting to change everything, lazy people wanting to blame some mechanic and leet pvpers looking to disadvantage their opponents any way they can.