Promoting healthy and fun PvP

[lazyburn]

This already scales based upon Magery and Inscribe.

Don't believe this is correct. Unless by scales you mean at GM magery/scribe you have an extra 7 circles of reflect (total 15) instead of only 8. Currently (unless this was changed very recently) having 80 inscription and 0 inscription makes no difference. You still reflect only 8 circles of spells. It isn't until you hit 100 inscription that any bonus kicks in.

It is a chance based off of taming + lore, however I am told they are weighted and the formula takes into account several other different factors too. I can tell you that Taming is weighted heavier than lore, which is what you are seeing.

I understand this and don't believe it to be a good system of balance. I'd like to see the rational behind someone saying that a stun tamer with nightmare gives up no skills in order to achieve this. You do not lose any percent chance to stun (80 anatomy vs 100 anatomy gives no advantages to stun), you do not lose any chance to control your nightmare (120 taming/20 lore = 100% chance to control), and again you do not give up any skillpoints in other areas.

My suggestion is to require a minimum of 80 animal lore. This is how it is on any other shard and makes sense. It's laughable that someone with 20 animal lore can control a mare 100% of the time, but a person with 100 taming and 90 animal lore fails miserably.

 

[halygon]

You must've missed spell damage and all guard me changes.

Not that i think they were bad, just saying

It is interesting to see how you interpret changes that are made and their reasons.

While it seems stupid simple to balance PvP - I mean cause other shards have had it balanced for a long time - it is truly an undertaking due to the unique UOF features and culture that we want to grow. No other shard has had quite the same type of difficulties. That said, I can tell you that PvP on UOF has grown in leaps and bounds in just the last couple of months. The caliber of players that are moving here is astounding.

We are not there yet in full, but we are getting ever closer to a balanced PvP system as the days go on.

 

[GluttonySDS]

The rationale is most likely that 120 taming costs 10mil to get to and countless hours. If you someone wants 120 taming and little to no lore to make a PVP tamer, then they are sacrificing PVM for the sake of PVP(whereas someone with 90 lore and 100 taming can do both).

 

[GluttonySDS]

That said, I can tell you that PvP on UOF has grown in leaps and bounds in just the last couple of months. The caliber of players that are moving here is astounding.

We are not there yet in full, but we are getting ever closer to a balanced PvP system as the days go on.

100% this -- its amazing to see how much better PVP(mechanics and players) has gotten even since EQMS came back in march.

 

[Messremb]

In a 5v5, nothing prevents one side from loading offscreen, running back on screen, dropping, and then running away again. There is nothing that forces groups to stay on screen and fight. Bolas are for factions only and factions arent really made for solo or 2man groups.

Not to mention improving factions to include more robust PVP would give a niche to order chaos as those people who wanted a PVP sytem without all the stuff factions will have can go order chaos instead.

#learntostun

 

[lazyburn]

The rationale is most likely that 120 taming costs 10mil to get to and countless hours. If you someone wants 120 taming and little to no lore to make a PVP tamer, then they are sacrificing PVM for the sake of PVP(whereas someone with 90 lore and 100 taming can do both).

Wrong on the point of 90 lore/100 taming being able to do both. You will fail to command your pet a lot of the time. This is something that I believe needs looking into regardless of PVP. Someone at this skill level IMO should not fail to control something like a nightmare as much as you do now. To add to this, people who invest the amount of time/money they do should not fail to control meta pets as much as they do currently. I don't have a meta pet or over 100 taming, but I hear stories of people failing to control their meta pet much of the time with over 110 taming/lore and higher.

Over 100 taming was added I believe to incorporate meta pets and the like. Regardless the cost should bear no significance to matters effecting PVP. This is actually over 60 free skillpoints. Currently at 100 taming and 100 animal lore you control a nightmare at 95% success rate. At 120 animal taming and 20 lore you control at 100% success rate. Again I don't feel like however much gold/time you have invested should give you advantages towards PVP. As far as I know this has always been the stance staff has taken in regards to meta pets, relics, etc.

To answer your question: Yes I would consider this unfair.

Would you be OK with dexxers, alchy mages, stun scribes having the ability to have 8 skills GM while giving little-nothing up? Scribe, alchy, stun mages? Mage alchy dexxers?

 

[Lord Hampton Royce]

i must have killed this guy with my stun tamer ^

 

[lazyburn]

i must have killed this guy with my stun tamer ^

Great retort and very convincing argument you have made in regards to defending your 8x GM stun tamer. Your debating skills are impeccable..

I have yet to hear a single convincing argument being made by ANYONE in favor of allowing an 8x GM stun tamer with a nightmare. The closest anyone has come to a rational point is that it costs money and time to get to 120 animal taming. Meanwhile I have made several valid and thought out points in opposition to this.

This is coming from a player that has a tamer (albeit without the 120 skillcap). Whatever changes are hopefully made will probably end up hurting my tamer rather than benefiting me. I however am able to step back and look at things objectively and realize that stun tamers like yourself in their current state are not balanced. I am not saying do away with stun tamers, but making people pick between running a stun tamer and dropping other skills in order to run that template should definitely be a decision people have to make. You want to run stun on your tamer? Drop your resist, meditation, etc. and run it. There needs to be trade-offs. Risk vs reward. This whole "I can't use a meta pet!" argument doesn't hold any weight in my book. In any field pvp situation a nightmare is normally all that is ever used.

Can staff comment on how the control chance calculations are done on this server? Can we talk about changing the mechanics to more accurately reflect this era and other similar shards in regards to tamers and pvp? @Shane @Adam @Blair @halygon @eppy

http://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/anim.php - These values are nowhere close.

 

[Lord Hampton Royce]

jesus dude TLDR?

i have a 720 skill cap just like you. im also 1 of 2 stun tamers in factions. stop crying.

 

[GluttonySDS]

How do you figure someone has 8x GM? That was only possible when the animal control sigil was not changed

 

[Lord Hampton Royce]

i swear man, these new schoolers are so soft.

i wish they played old school uoforever, or OSI, or test center.

smh.

 

[Proven]

Actually the fact that you can control a nightmare with 20 lore at all is completely ridiculous.

Taming is already semi passive, Ai complimented, high damage that is unaffected by lag. That it can achieve that with 140 points is slightly ridiculous.

Provo takes 2 skills to work and even then you kinda need 120 Provo to handle the hardest stuff. 220 points, no talisman, zero use in pvp.

Meanwhile taking 140 points gives you tanking/dps in pvm and pvp. Sorry, cost is irrelevant since dex/Mage/bards have no high cost options at all on the same level as tamers.

If the goal was to basically force pvpers to taming in some kind of arms race the best way to do that is allow crazy tamer uoforever builds that basically get a GM skill for 20 points.

I mean it's not like tamers are already top in every category. Nothing excites me more than trying to pvp against a lagless teleporting instacasting endgame monster.

 

[lazyburn]

How do you figure someone has 8x GM? That was only possible when the animal control sigil was not changed

I guess saying 8x GM might be a tad bit exaggerated. What I was referring to is that animal lore is practically unneeded while you have 120 taming.

Call me old fashioned, but when wanting to run a stun tamer you should have to choose between 7 of these skills.

Animal Taming
Animal Lore
Magery
Meditation
Resist
Wrestling
Evalint
Anatomy

Having 20 animal lore and only 140 skillpoints invested while being able to control a mare better than someone with 200 skillpoints invested (100/100) is laughable no matter how you look at it.

I wish someone could come up with an counter argument that halfway made sense.

 

[Lord Hampton Royce]

140 points doesnt give tanking/dps in pvm and pvp.

you can get a long spear alchy fencer, do 40 dmg hits and 25 damage pots. you see this template run by 90% of pvpers as an alt template.

i have a pvp tamer, and i choose to put him as a pvp tamer. since the fix, i cant pvm with this guy. i cant use any decent pets to farm or tank.

so again, who are you, and why do you feel the need to discuss pvp?

thanks

 

[Lord Hampton Royce]

I guess saying 8x GM might be a tad bit exaggerated. What I was referring to is that animal lore is practically unneeded while you have 120 taming.

Call me old fashioned, but when wanting to run a stun tamer you should have to choose between 7 of these skills.

Animal Taming
Animal Lore
Magery
Meditation
Resist
Wrestling
Evalint
Anatomy

Having 20 animal lore and only 140 skillpoints invested while being able to control a mare better than someone with 200 skillpoints invested (100/100) is laughable no matter how you look at it.

I wish someone could come up with an counter argument that halfway made sense.

heres an argument that makes sense. you clearly havent played uoforever aka the greatest pvp free shard in its prime. this is a custom uo server that is constantly updating and changing to make pvp as fair and well-rounded as possible. theres 2 pvp tamers in factions, myself and aga. aga kinda sucks, so that makes me the only pvp tamer.

if you feel my mare/stun combo is too op, then clearly you dont have the background or the experience of high level pvp.

does that make sense?

 

[Proven]

What other combo can I get for 140 points that gives high damage, requires my opponent to stop targeting me to deal with, is nearly passive in its damage application, allows me to perform every other action without impediment while it does its thing, can tank mobs in pvm to an extent, gives me a bonded mount, is unaffected by network lag, cannot be interrupted, and many pvpers consider to be the antithesis of pvp?

Just curious.


Who I am is not relevant to the points being made unless the goal is to ad hominem or setup straw man attacks.

I'm sure non vet 140 tamer can handle non casters just fine and likely only off limits to the creme de la creme of mobs.

And appeals to authority, ergo decedo, will fail as the terrible logical fallacies that they are.

 

[GluttonySDS]

When all guard me was broken, tamers were OP and you saw a ton of them PVPing. Now tamers are not OP and you only see 2 people running tamers in faction PVP(one is aga who is trash and one is ghost is good).

If it was truly OP, everyone would be running a tamer for PVP.

 

[lazyburn]

140 points doesnt give tanking/dps in pvm and pvp.

140 points gives you a nightmare. 140 points gives you extra spell damage to any dump. 140 points gives you the ability to disrupt syncs while stunned or otherwise. 140 points gives you more DPS than ANY other template can put out in mere seconds. Tamers alone are by far one of - if not the strongest template on this shard. Add stun into the equation (with very little to no trade-offs) and they are just plain broken. I would also like to know the actual formulas used because I would be willing to bet you are able to control a dragon as well with this setup. You personally may not (as again, a mare is all that is ever used in 99% of pvp situations), but I would bet it is possible. I believe you do not bring out any dragon because people would more easily see how broken pvp taming mechanics here really is.

you can get a long spear alchy fencer, do 40 dmg hits and 25 damage pots. you see this template run by 90% of pvpers as an alt template.

This is not relevant to the conversation at all. This just kind of came out of left field. You are deflecting.

i have a pvp tamer, and i choose to put him as a pvp tamer. since the fix, i cant pvm with this guy. i cant use any decent pets to farm or tank.

I am sorry I did not realize that nightmares are not able to tank damage. I was under the impression that they had something like 520 hit points and did very good damage to mobs.

this is a custom uo server that is constantly updating and changing to make pvp as fair and well-rounded as possible.

I hope so. Hopefully staff will see this as the issue it is and change things for the better. @Adam @Shane @halygon @eppy @Blair

theres 2 pvp tamers in factions, myself and aga. aga kinda sucks, so that makes me the only pvp tamer.

You are talking about Token Tamer I assume? http://uoforever.com/legends/?action=player&s=1486667

Does not look like he is able to stun. If he was he would have to give up many of his skills and do some trade-offs in order to pursue this route.

 

[GluttonySDS]

He used to use his dragon to rape people...then they nerfed it so you cant stun and control anything but a nightmare. No offense @lazyburn but it doesnt seem like you have much experience in the field or you would have seen/understood the progression of tamer PVP over the past 3 months.

 

[lazyburn]

He used to use his dragon to rape people...then they nerfed it so you cant stun and control anything but a nightmare. No offense @lazyburn but it doesnt seem like you have much experience in the field or you would have seen/understood the progression of tamer PVP over the past 3 months.

No offense @GluttonySDS but I do not feel as if you are capable of putting a well thought out argument into words in support of this situation. If you are unable to put up a rational thoughts and reasoning behind an argument maybe you should sit out of the conversation.