Mage PvP Needs Diversity

[halygon]

I looked this up and you are referencing the ruleset prior to 6/1/1998. This was before order and chaos really got started. You were required to not be a murderer, have a noteriety level just below lord/lady (or higher), and yes during that brief time there was a bug that allowed shields to not be disarmed to cast. This was fixed in June of '98, which is why everyone is saying you're wrong, including myself. So I'll give you half brownie points for remembering an old bug, but I think as far as this thread goes, the bug is irrelevant as that short time period did not define the ruleset of pre-t2a or UO:R.

 

[Winstonian]

I looked this up and you are referencing the ruleset prior to 6/1/1998. This was before order and chaos really got started. You were required to not be a murderer, have a noteriety level just below lord/lady (or higher), and yes during that brief time there was a bug that allowed shields to not be disarmed to cast. This was fixed in June of '98, which is why everyone is saying you're wrong, including myself. So I'll give you half brownie points for remembering an old bug, but I think as far as this thread goes, the bug is irrelevant as that short time period did not define the ruleset of pre-t2a or UO:R.

A few things: 1) it wasn't really a brief period, 2) order/chaos was the only organized PvP system in place (and it was extremely active), and 3) it wasn't necessarily a bug. Had it been an exploit, they would have patched it immediately. Players made builds around it, but had to earn the privilege. Roach mages were everywhere. I played back then (although I didn't have one).

My favorite part of this shard is that they aren't "married" to UOR, and are aiming to create the best experience possible. If that means implementing things that don't reflect T2A/UOR, I feel they'll do it... which is why I'm even here.

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[halygon]

A few things: 1) it wasn't really a brief period, 2) order/chaos was the only organized PvP system in place (and it was extremely active), and 3) it wasn't necessarily a bug. Had it been an exploit..

UO went live at the end of sept '97, and this was Patched early June of '98. That's a short period of time in UO history, which is what I'm referring to. I'm sure it would have been patched sooner, but for those that played then know that a ton of patches were being implemented all the time. It was the first true mmorpg and required a ton of tweeking during those first 8-9 months.

 

[Winstonian]

UO went live at the end of sept '97, and this was Patched early June of '98. That's a short period of time in UO history, which is what I'm referring to. I'm sure it would have been patched sooner, but for those that played then know that a ton of patches were being implemented all the time. It was the first true mmorpg and required a ton of tweeking during those first 8-9 months.

You really think it was a bug when a system was formed around it being used that way? It was a bug that a certain fame leave was required to cast while holding it? That it was active for 8 months before being changed? It wasn't a bug.

Yes, they eventually changed it, but they changed a lot of things over the years (hello AoS). It doesn't mean that it wasn't a great mechanic: it generated droves of PvP.

Stun also didn't exist back then. The two abilities would compliment each other nicely.

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[halygon]

You really think it was a bug when a system was formed around it being used that way?

Pretty sure no system was developed around this. Plus non-order/chaos shields couldn't be equipped while casting. The fact that some players took advantage of this during that time period does not mean it was intentionally a part of the UO vision.

It was a bug that a certain fame leave was required to cast while holding it?

the notoriety level was a requirement for the Order/chaos system in general, not specifically for the shields.

That it was active for 8 months before being changed? It wasn't a bug.

a lot of bugs have sat in UO without being fixed. The amount of effort required along with the priority of it determines WHEN a bug is fixed. To me this is definately a low priority issue compared to some of the bugs they were dealing with at the time.. Can we say gold dupe? Want an example of a bug so low priority that it was never fixed? Check out the boat boarding bug that Dewderonomy uses in his endeavors even here.

 

[Winstonian]

Pretty sure no system was developed around this. Plus non-order/chaos shields couldn't be equipped while casting. The fact that some players took advantage of this during that time period does not mean it was intentionally a part of the UO vision.

the notoriety level was a requirement for the Order/chaos system in general, not specifically for the shields.

a lot of bugs have sat in UO without being fixed. The amount of effort required along with the priority of it determines WHEN a bug is fixed. To me this is definately a low priority issue compared to some of the bugs they were dealing with at the time.. Can we say gold dupe? Want an example of a bug so low priority that it was never fixed? Check out the boat boarding bug that Dewderonomy uses in his endeavors even here.

Regular shields couldn't be equipped while casting; it doesn't seem like it would be difficult to program O/C shields the same way.

But arguing about this is pointless, as neither of us know for sure. It existed, and was beautiful. It added a new class to the PvP landscape. We could use that here.

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[Fenix]

If roach mages are your idea of "beautiful" id hate to see your wife!


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[K A Z]

I don't see how those parryfaggots would compliment Stun. Please explain.

 

[Fenix]

They are 'barehanded' and can still stun with off hand im assuming?


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[Winstonian]

I don't see how those parryfaggots would compliment Stun. Please explain.

Compliment as a balancing mechanic. It would be an option that counters the stun crutch that "stunfaggots" rely on to get kills.

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[K A Z]

Compliment as a balancing mechanic. It would be an option that counters the stun crutch that "stunfaggots" rely on to get kills.

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How can you kill somebody with parrying?

You're following one flawless logic.

 

[Fenix]

Hes saying youll block more stuns with a shield


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[Winstonian]

Hes saying youll block more stuns with a shield


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... yep.

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[Fenix]

He likes rock paper scissors over the dice roll. Can't say I blame him, but i think with suggestions like this it's important to keep the scale of the actual implementation into account in a very "Big Picture" way. The balance would have to be tested into oblivion, you dont just add something like this and let it fly, even if it was desirable


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[Winstonian]

He likes rock paper scissors over the dice roll. Can't say I blame him, but i think with suggestions like this it's important to keep the scale of the actual implementation into account in a very "Big Picture" way. The balance would have to be tested into oblivion, you dont just add something like this and let it fly, even if it was desirable


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Strongly agree... it would have to be tested immensely.

I'd much prefer a rock-paper-scissors structure to a coin flip, and I think UO has always sort of been about that. I think it's why I hate stun so much here. (Although it was used back in the day, other abilities were strong enough to provide other options.)

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[Fenix]

Your points about pvp being stun-based are not misguided...I agree that stun is pretty lame and having to land one in order to win in the course of a 7x mage fight IS pretty lame, butttt... Changes like this are a shitload of work. PvP here is pretty solid when you look around at other MMO's. I'm content for now.


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[Winstonian]

Your points about pvp being stun-based are not misguided...I agree that stun is pretty lame and having to land one in order to win in the course of a 7x mage fight IS pretty lame, butttt... Changes like this are a shitload of work. PvP here is pretty solid when you look around at other MMO's. I'm content for now.


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I absolutely agree. I despise PvP on a lot of other MMOs... it's sort of why I started looking around for a free shard again. I have the best memories of any PvP with this game: huge order/chaos fights in bucs den, back when 75 magery was strong, and where spell timing (and player targeting) were the defining aspects of quality players.

In my opinion, things are pretty close here, and a few slight adjustments are all that's needed. If they aren't made, oh well... I'm still going to play here, and finish poisoning on my mage, regardless of how nerfed it is here.

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[K A Z]

with more stuns absorbed what's going to change? It'll just lead to fights being even more boring. Even as it is now it's close to impossible to kill each other on a Stunmage when both sides are using pots.

 

[Winstonian]

with more stuns absorbed what's going to change? It'll just lead to fights being even more boring. Even as it is now it's close to impossible to kill each other on a Stunmage when both sides are using pots.

Players that don't rely on stun as a crutch will be able to select an ability that reduces its effectiveness. I'd say that's a pretty good change.

I'll agree: I think potions are also abused. It's why I don't use them.

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[Fenix]

Players that don't rely on stun as a crutch will be able to select an ability that reduces its effectiveness. I'd say that's a pretty good change.

I'll agree: I think potions are also abused. It's why I don't use them.

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I understand the moral objection, and I'm on board with thinking pots are stupid in pvp but youre gimping yourself pretty hard if you dont use em here...


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