Incentives for PVP
- Thread starter GluttonySDS
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Tard the Paladin
Grandmaster
One of the most basic game design principles is rewarding players for the time and effort they devote. Many of us feel that UO has always had an underrated and robust system of pvp mechanics. We feel its a shame that time spent during faction battles only results in needing to restock.
The disconnect seems to be that staff has a narrow mindset that thinks that rewards should only come from pvm'ing meanwhile PvP is merely some frivolous pastime enjoyed by a small niche audience. Over the years we see the devs make posts about amending PvP and incentives are always dismissed. Those PvP changes predictably fail and the devs are all like, "WTF we did this, this, and this and still no one pvps!". No shit, you don't reward players for their time/effort and you miss out on attracting a broader audience.
If we actually see a Kingdoms expansion (who knows) then the big question is will pvm'ers give it a try? My two cents on the Kingdoms stuff is either properly incentivize it or don't waste your time because it will fail miserably right out of the gate.
TLDR: For years we've pointed point out the obvious fact that PvP changes won't attract players unless those players feel rewarded for their time/effort. Rewarding players for their time/effort is one of the most fundamental pillars of game design that has been consistently ignored for years by devs as it relates to PvP.
The disconnect seems to be that staff has a narrow mindset that thinks that rewards should only come from pvm'ing meanwhile PvP is merely some frivolous pastime enjoyed by a small niche audience. Over the years we see the devs make posts about amending PvP and incentives are always dismissed. Those PvP changes predictably fail and the devs are all like, "WTF we did this, this, and this and still no one pvps!". No shit, you don't reward players for their time/effort and you miss out on attracting a broader audience.
If we actually see a Kingdoms expansion (who knows) then the big question is will pvm'ers give it a try? My two cents on the Kingdoms stuff is either properly incentivize it or don't waste your time because it will fail miserably right out of the gate.
TLDR: For years we've pointed point out the obvious fact that PvP changes won't attract players unless those players feel rewarded for their time/effort. Rewarding players for their time/effort is one of the most fundamental pillars of game design that has been consistently ignored for years by devs as it relates to PvP.
Inflames
Master
If you need more incentive then
your doing it for the wrong reasons
your doing it for the wrong reasons
Bromista
Grandmaster
You took the message at its absolute base and from it made one of the simplest of observations of life to what...try to convey that we on the same page? Many congratulations to you.
You didn't think to take it more than a tiny step forward? No fresh ideas as to how you give incentive? Fresh ideas on how to motivate?
You show players their progress towards a desirable goal. You reward accordingly.
The one and only point made in the OP that has merit is #1. It's not much but it's a start and I need to acknowledge that. I didn't/won't directly address your other suggestions individually and why they don't work because it's not necessary. In light of that, maybe I should take it easier on you...maybe...but see also: my previous reply. Your disingenuous populism and demagoguery dilutes the merit of that suggestion. Your words are rhetoric. It's annoying and it's not getting us anywhere so here we are at dead horse junction.
Now it's good on you, in a sense, because even though it's same old shit different day...saying that same tired crap does afford other people the opportunity to improve and expand upon your ideas and that's what a public forum is all about.
You didn't think to take it more than a tiny step forward? No fresh ideas as to how you give incentive? Fresh ideas on how to motivate?
You show players their progress towards a desirable goal. You reward accordingly.
The one and only point made in the OP that has merit is #1. It's not much but it's a start and I need to acknowledge that. I didn't/won't directly address your other suggestions individually and why they don't work because it's not necessary. In light of that, maybe I should take it easier on you...maybe...but see also: my previous reply. Your disingenuous populism and demagoguery dilutes the merit of that suggestion. Your words are rhetoric. It's annoying and it's not getting us anywhere so here we are at dead horse junction.
Now it's good on you, in a sense, because even though it's same old shit different day...saying that same tired crap does afford other people the opportunity to improve and expand upon your ideas and that's what a public forum is all about.
kolbycrouch
Master
Blue players PvM because they ENJOY killing monsters, and they are rewarded.
Red players PK because they ENJOY killing blue players, and they are rewarded ( kinda ).
Faction players PvP because they ENJOY killing faction players, and they are NOT rewarded.
So the argument that incentives are bad if given for things people already enjoy, the argument is weak.
By that logic, only farming resource nodes should give rewards because nobody likes to do that.
You can implement a system that:
1. Does not allow you to farm your own players.
2. Does not allow you to farm your own guildmates.
3. Is still less rewarding than PvM.
I've been able to sustain gold and even make most of mine from killing blues instead of monsters.
If you really want to stop the PK problem, at least allow me to sustain my wealth when I kill other faction players.
As it is now, unless you drop fat G-Heal charges or a gold wep, I probably spent more time/resources than it was worth to kill you.
Red players PK because they ENJOY killing blue players, and they are rewarded ( kinda ).
Faction players PvP because they ENJOY killing faction players, and they are NOT rewarded.
So the argument that incentives are bad if given for things people already enjoy, the argument is weak.
By that logic, only farming resource nodes should give rewards because nobody likes to do that.
You can implement a system that:
1. Does not allow you to farm your own players.
2. Does not allow you to farm your own guildmates.
3. Is still less rewarding than PvM.
I've been able to sustain gold and even make most of mine from killing blues instead of monsters.
If you really want to stop the PK problem, at least allow me to sustain my wealth when I kill other faction players.
As it is now, unless you drop fat G-Heal charges or a gold wep, I probably spent more time/resources than it was worth to kill you.
Bromista
Grandmaster
But that's ok IMO if you know what you're getting into when fighting within a specific system (factions/militia) and the following conditions are met:
The return on investment of pixelfightz is really something that I would like adjusted. It's feast or famine for the most part and I think something like a reward progression for participation would be a mighty motivator. More balanced rewards and spicing them up would go a long way. As glutt suggested, some new points to fight over in dungeons could be interesting. I feel like we kinda have enough of those already and we can just tweak what we already have.
Lotta things can be done. Lotta things.
- You accept that going in and are participating in PvP for the fun of it (more or less current systems...Events, tournies, factions)
- There is something for the people who wanna fight for glory and pixels that has sufficient appeal.
The return on investment of pixelfightz is really something that I would like adjusted. It's feast or famine for the most part and I think something like a reward progression for participation would be a mighty motivator. More balanced rewards and spicing them up would go a long way. As glutt suggested, some new points to fight over in dungeons could be interesting. I feel like we kinda have enough of those already and we can just tweak what we already have.
Lotta things can be done. Lotta things.
Xiulan
Master
GluttonySDS
Grandmaster
Im not sure what youre trying to argue with this screenshot(other than prove how obsessed you are)... I dont care about pixels or gold, I am of the 1% that plays UO for pvp and nothing else. However the majority of people in UO (and other MMOs) need motivation to participate in things (see Bromistas link).
It is far easier to accumulate silver through PVE than it is PVP.... faction vendors are not a reward as anyone can join the faction who owns towns on an alt char and buy regs even though their main chars are in diff factions.
Bromista
Grandmaster
If you're obsessed with pixels in 2017 you're ********.
If you have no interest in pixels in 2017 you're ********.
Let's get p o l a r i z e d
If you have no interest in pixels in 2017 you're ********.
Let's get p o l a r i z e d
Darkarna
Grandmaster
This is merely an observation, possibly wrong but I feel it might be worth mentioning anyway. Before I do, this is not a slandering post, a crying post or any of the other negative things which could be attached to this post, it is not meant to upset anyone, cause an argument which lasts for days and any input is welcome regarding this.
Each area of the game needs to be balanced in some way. Crafting, resource hunting, Player Vs Monster, Player Vs Player, Stealing, Fishing, Cooking, Factions. Each area can be split into different subsections, for example Crafting would split into Blacksmith, tailoring, carpentry, alchemy etc. For the sake of argument, we will not talk about subsections and leave the main categories as Crafting,Fishing, PVP etc then we can create a pie chart. Lets consider that the majority of the content is balanced in a decent way, but with each new turn of events in game, a small percentage is added to a specific area. Eventually, things start to look out of shape, where crafting gets more love and attention than fishing, this leads to imbalance. So, what needs to happen is content or beneficial changes are added to the floundering *ahem* fishing areas, what that does in turn is throw the other areas out of shape so they require changes also.
Now, lets talk about the present time. Factions have been hit it seems because of certain player strategies in game *completely my opinion, holds no weight and is speculation.* If you have a guild which holds many members, then it would seem to be extremely easy to be able to manipulate a certain reward function regarding factions. The more numbers one has, the easier it is to rack up those goodies / benefits. This applies not only to EQMS, but to SM and other large alliances who are currently sitting in factions. Eventually, larger guilds will accelerate passed the competition, be more endowed *ahem* and better equipped to exploit riches associated with the system and obviously fish hook other players into joining because of the advantages to be had with any large faction group. Eventually, other factions may suffer with numbers because of this-thus leading to gross imbalance because, why would anyone join the losing and vastly outnumbered side? *Please feel free to correct me if faction sides are all balanced, don't really know a lot about factions myself so I could be way off*
It could also mean that factions are being tinkered with to suit a better overall, play style. IF what I say is correct then this could well be a direct nerf to large scale warfare *no shit eh?*
Each area of the game needs to be balanced in some way. Crafting, resource hunting, Player Vs Monster, Player Vs Player, Stealing, Fishing, Cooking, Factions. Each area can be split into different subsections, for example Crafting would split into Blacksmith, tailoring, carpentry, alchemy etc. For the sake of argument, we will not talk about subsections and leave the main categories as Crafting,Fishing, PVP etc then we can create a pie chart. Lets consider that the majority of the content is balanced in a decent way, but with each new turn of events in game, a small percentage is added to a specific area. Eventually, things start to look out of shape, where crafting gets more love and attention than fishing, this leads to imbalance. So, what needs to happen is content or beneficial changes are added to the floundering *ahem* fishing areas, what that does in turn is throw the other areas out of shape so they require changes also.
Now, lets talk about the present time. Factions have been hit it seems because of certain player strategies in game *completely my opinion, holds no weight and is speculation.* If you have a guild which holds many members, then it would seem to be extremely easy to be able to manipulate a certain reward function regarding factions. The more numbers one has, the easier it is to rack up those goodies / benefits. This applies not only to EQMS, but to SM and other large alliances who are currently sitting in factions. Eventually, larger guilds will accelerate passed the competition, be more endowed *ahem* and better equipped to exploit riches associated with the system and obviously fish hook other players into joining because of the advantages to be had with any large faction group. Eventually, other factions may suffer with numbers because of this-thus leading to gross imbalance because, why would anyone join the losing and vastly outnumbered side? *Please feel free to correct me if faction sides are all balanced, don't really know a lot about factions myself so I could be way off*
It could also mean that factions are being tinkered with to suit a better overall, play style. IF what I say is correct then this could well be a direct nerf to large scale warfare *no shit eh?*
GluttonySDS
Grandmaster
I have no interest in pixels.... if youre obsessed with pixels in 2017 you are indeed sad but the point here is making fun of all the sad people... its trying to harness their motivations to improve consensual PVP and at the same time reduce PKing(which is the #1 reason people leave the shard).
Bromista
Grandmaster
I made the polarization comment for a reason.
I'd be careful making those kind of statements because you're more reliant on pixels than you must realize. For anyone to take the anti-pixel stance...well...Please do we really need to even do this?
I mean you're as bad as those you're blasting, surely you can see that?
These things motivate everyone to varying degrees obviously so let's please add that to the list of things not worth talking about:
I'd be careful making those kind of statements because you're more reliant on pixels than you must realize. For anyone to take the anti-pixel stance...well...Please do we really need to even do this?
I mean you're as bad as those you're blasting, surely you can see that?
These things motivate everyone to varying degrees obviously so let's please add that to the list of things not worth talking about:
- Tried and failed strategies to motivate
- Whether or not incentives work
- Whether or not you're a real big boy gamer who does big boy gamer things or playing UO Barbie Dream House and the validity of your opinion based on that
If you actually killed someone you would know you get hardly any silver for a kill and the chance of a faction item is garbage.
Bromista
Grandmaster
First of all lol. But yeah those faction items hold little value because they are consumables that impact gameplay. So by rule they basically must not be high value items nor overly abundant.
It seems that just more silver per kill is what most people wanna see in the short term which is probably ok.
And it seems that most people do want PvP rewarded so that it's not such a breakeven thing.
And if you look at the mere concept of the silver vendor I think you see that idea of a goal that your working towards as motivation. Your accumulation of silver costs you time and resources but it's a clear and visible goal. It just looks like the pixel element it's not currently where it needs to be and it may actually be holding people back from participating.
I dare say you cut the silver drops in half when farming and double for PvP.
It seems that just more silver per kill is what most people wanna see in the short term which is probably ok.
And it seems that most people do want PvP rewarded so that it's not such a breakeven thing.
And if you look at the mere concept of the silver vendor I think you see that idea of a goal that your working towards as motivation. Your accumulation of silver costs you time and resources but it's a clear and visible goal. It just looks like the pixel element it's not currently where it needs to be and it may actually be holding people back from participating.
I dare say you cut the silver drops in half when farming and double for PvP.
GluttonySDS
Grandmaster
I think the best solution would be an [eventscore type system... you accumulate points for all sorts of faction based activity(stealing a sigil, killing an enemy who had a sigil, getting a kill, getting a kill in a faction base, helping cap a point, removing a trap, etc). Have point multipliers go up if you own sigils and if you are elected a finance minister or sherriff.
Allow points to be tradeable and points will be redeemed only for cosmetic or non gameplay items(wearables, titles, title hues, reg deeds, bottle deeds, mounts, statues, etc).
Also allow people to see who is a top the point leaderboard so there is inherent competition that way.
Allow points to be tradeable and points will be redeemed only for cosmetic or non gameplay items(wearables, titles, title hues, reg deeds, bottle deeds, mounts, statues, etc).
Also allow people to see who is a top the point leaderboard so there is inherent competition that way.
GluttonySDS
Grandmaster
The idea behind "zergs" or large guilds being bad for UOF is foolish...
a.) there are multiple large guilds and many of these large guilds are allied up together -- the days of EQMS outnumbering opponents 5:1 is 2 years old.
b.) large guilds are designed for factions and vice versa, it gives these large entities a system to fight and compete against eachother.
c.) there is nothing more demotivating than to be in a small guild, log on and find no one one to play with or nothing to do...
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
I tend to agree with Gluttony's notion of an event system, whether it was a long term event score similar to conquests, or something that was reset weekly or monthly (with scoreboards on the forums would be super cool). It'll give rewards to those who PvP casually, and more rewards to those who PvP more hardcore. Right now the casual PvP'r doesn't stand a chance, and gains absolutely no benefit to PvP'ing, especially if they are newer, and not established, so why would they bother to PvP over PvE?
I've been around just over a month now, I'm trying to establish myself on the server, get a bigger than an 8x8 house, build up some coin to make the different characters i want to play, and so I can be efficient in PvP when I get there, the reality is any time I put into PvP right is directly going to affect how quickly I accomplish some of those goals, because all PvP is, is a money/time sink right now. The system needs to compensate people for the time spent, its not enough to be fierce competition. Leader boards are always an interesting notion, because it feeds off of people's ego's, but unlocking a set of PvP type wearables, that don't give people advantages to game play also feeds off of peopel's fashion sense and is a big winner... Pixels generate interest...
I've been around just over a month now, I'm trying to establish myself on the server, get a bigger than an 8x8 house, build up some coin to make the different characters i want to play, and so I can be efficient in PvP when I get there, the reality is any time I put into PvP right is directly going to affect how quickly I accomplish some of those goals, because all PvP is, is a money/time sink right now. The system needs to compensate people for the time spent, its not enough to be fierce competition. Leader boards are always an interesting notion, because it feeds off of people's ego's, but unlocking a set of PvP type wearables, that don't give people advantages to game play also feeds off of peopel's fashion sense and is a big winner... Pixels generate interest...
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
For new members who haven't established themselves, haven't established connections to larger guilds or people, who are already overwhelmed with the plethora of options, and next to little or no support to get started because of an unforgiving, self sustaining player base, a large red zerg guild ruining any of their initial experiences is definitely not good for UOF, new blood is what helps to sustain servers.
Finding ways to indirectly affect a new players experience would not be a bad thing, and that's where I agree with improving and incentivizing consensual PvP, to reduce the number of PK's to a manageable level, so that the established players can find an enjoyment at the end game (PvP), without becoming so prolific and overbearing as PK's that they destroy the server.
The reality is, there is more reason to PK with a 5 man group, and spoil someone's 2 hour champ spawn than there is to PvP in factions or Order/Chaos right now. At worst you are out some weapons and armor, at best you just picked up a power scroll or two, for 5 minutes of game time.
Bromista
Grandmaster
How would scoring work?
Tricky thing to address, I mean we want to draw players out to fight whether they know they are gonna get zerged or not.
The bulk of big rewards come from PvM hotspots so we already know where to go and why we are going there. You go to a champ to advance the spawn and kill a boss. How many people get killed in the process and how much spawn you kill doesn't matter one bit right now as long as you mop up the boss up at the end. Ultimately you do have to drop that boss to get a reward though so I mean we can't forget that.
SO if you add a progressive scoring system, you may not think this is ideal but you can't include PvP to amass scoring in any way. Maybe tweaking silver drops would help make that not matter as much overall, but honestly you already have enough reason to go put it on the line to take a champ (fat drops in packs on boss death aren't going anywhere that's a thrill that's irreplaceable) so you don't need any more incentive IMO.
In short: the increased incentives for pixelfightz aren't meant for players doing the killing to obtain. Apply the progressive incentives for people doing the PvM (you can still pick up some PvM points of your own while you're out fighting too, don't forget) to increase the draw for PvMers thus creating more PvP. If everyone comes out richer everyone plays more.
Then your only real problem is dealing with the influx of riches on the server generated by all the action.
Tricky thing to address, I mean we want to draw players out to fight whether they know they are gonna get zerged or not.
The bulk of big rewards come from PvM hotspots so we already know where to go and why we are going there. You go to a champ to advance the spawn and kill a boss. How many people get killed in the process and how much spawn you kill doesn't matter one bit right now as long as you mop up the boss up at the end. Ultimately you do have to drop that boss to get a reward though so I mean we can't forget that.
SO if you add a progressive scoring system, you may not think this is ideal but you can't include PvP to amass scoring in any way. Maybe tweaking silver drops would help make that not matter as much overall, but honestly you already have enough reason to go put it on the line to take a champ (fat drops in packs on boss death aren't going anywhere that's a thrill that's irreplaceable) so you don't need any more incentive IMO.
In short: the increased incentives for pixelfightz aren't meant for players doing the killing to obtain. Apply the progressive incentives for people doing the PvM (you can still pick up some PvM points of your own while you're out fighting too, don't forget) to increase the draw for PvMers thus creating more PvP. If everyone comes out richer everyone plays more.
Then your only real problem is dealing with the influx of riches on the server generated by all the action.
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