Incentives for PVP

[GluttonySDS]

I've been gone awhile but it seems almost nothing has changed. /sad
Anyhow let's break these down without any basis shall we.

welcome back... done with rust?

Did we forget where we are? You're in said dungeon pvping over this mark. Think those blues will stick around long to farm anything? Prolly not. This tax, would it come off 10% of the gold the person/s farming would make? So just because they have no desire in factions they automatically lose 10% of anything they kill? That's bad for business, or did you mean, 10% is generated per kill not affecting the player farming it and thus creating this gold out of thin air? If so that's also bad for business as in dilutes gold worth even more.

It would be on top of what is farmed... if you think that 10% of what is farmed in a dungeon is going to break the server, then implement more gold sinks. Keep in mind that people who will be generating income from PVP will no longer be generating income(or nearly as much from PVE). You could even have this 10% be converted into a faction/milita only currency as to not dillute gold value if that is truly a concern.

Do we not understand basic supply and demand? 500silver wouldn't be worth 20k gold anymore, if you were getting 500silver a kill. All the board idea does, is create more work on the staff, having to check names constantly to see whose who, and if they "cheated" and ego stroking. Idea just wouldn't work, nor would it be enough to get more/new people into the scene.

More work for staff? I'll write the webpage to display kills and the community will police it(just like they currently do with RDAs). Thats the nice thing about people being addicted to UO, they have plenty of time to dedicate to policing eachother.

If the salary is paid in silver this could be a decent idea. Though as stated earlier this would drop silver to gold price. Which would require silver to be more useful in terms of gearing up for pvp, specially with how much silver would end up on the server. However a Gold salary just doesn't do it for me. PvP isn't about making gold. Not in our Era anyways.....More on that later.

Salary could be based on gold, silver, or even [eventpoints style points system where the points are used to redeem prizes only on the faction vendors. PVP isnt about making gold.... thats the whole idea, to promote more PVP by putting pixel incentives to encourage participation.

Unfortunately I can't put to much into this one, as I haven't been back long enough to see how the changes affect this. Though I feel like I read somewhere that factioners do get more score? Not that any of that matters. Spawns and RDA's shouldn't need a Faction incentive. The incentive in both of these are the rewards already. This isn't a mechanic issue, it's a selfish issue. Of all the years and different servers I've played, it seems teamwork on UOF is at an all time low. Having been in the majority of guilds on this server, I have seen the same problem.
One group who solely wants to pvp, and will bail on the objective of killing a spawn while they chase down targets, and another group who solely wants it down and to GTFO. Both are options that with just a LITTLE teamwork benefit each other greatly. Sadly the fix to this wouldn't be well reviewed on a server like ours.

Where is the harm in adding incentive for consensual PVP at champ spawns and RDAs?

This conversation is brought up far to much to be honest. Incentives in the short run do one thing. Favor the guild on top immediately, and in the long run MIGHT even things out and bring more to factions, but as you stated in your pvp rankings thread. NO one is contesting you guys right now and haven't for 2 years. So incentives or not, these ideas seem to benefit who the most? Go ahead, answer it. It's you. Since we know you'll write this off as me being salty, or clueless, yada yada.

No one is contesting us right now? Weird because if you go in discord you would see that EQMS is a dying guild and is crumbling and loses every fight. Incentives will always benefit the group that organizes, employs teamwork, and wins... to the victor go the spoils. Are you saying that everyone is lying and EQMS is always the victor? Why should we limit mechanics and gameplay imrpovements because of a single guild? If I hung myself in prison like Aaron Hernandez and EQMS disbanded, would you then be okay for these features? sad.

If people truly want pvp to flourish it requires drastic changes, and mechanics a lot of people on a UOR style server are going to reject just because it's NOT ERA CORRECT!. /shakes head Won't even bother putting said suggestions down.

Nope, if you want PVP to flourish you need to do 2 things:

1. incentivize it to encourage participation
2. make it newbie friendly -- the less scripts necessary, the more newbie friendly PVP gets, the more people get you into PVP.

 

[toddyboi]

So what can we expect in the near future in terms of PVP content?

Last time i asked you on discord about kingdoms it sounded like it was done but you guys didn't want to release it for an (to me) unknown reason.

Do you want more suggestions for pvp stuff or there something in the works we need to be patient for, and if so, can we know about it?

He's got no idea what to do.. too busy with updating donation vendors and doing raffles. One pretty simple method to combat the "zerg" is to force people to fight together aka only have 2 factions. Everyone that doesn't like EQMS will be in the opposing faction. If you don't like fighting together, play a red factioner.

 

[GluttonySDS]

He's got no idea what to do.. too busy with updating donation vendors and doing raffles. One pretty simple method to combat the "zerg" is to force people to fight together aka only have 2 factions. Everyone that doesn't like EQMS will be in the opposing faction. If you don't like fighting together, play a red factioner.

Ive advocated for a long time to give EQMS our own faction... win/win for everyone. I legit never thought I'd see the day when so many PVPers cry about having too many newbs(in purple) to fight.

 

[drasked]

He's got no idea what to do.. too busy with updating donation vendors and doing raffles. One pretty simple method to combat the "zerg" is to force people to fight together aka only have 2 factions. Everyone that doesn't like EQMS will be in the opposing faction. If you don't like fighting together, play a red factioner.

As long as there is nothing to fight over other than braggin rights and PVE objectives i doubt any changes to the current system will help.

 

[drasked]

This conversation is brought up far to much to be honest. Incentives in the short run do one thing. Favor the guild on top immediately, and in the long run MIGHT even things out and bring more to factions, but as you stated in your pvp rankings thread. NO one is contesting you guys right now and haven't for 2 years. So incentives or not, these ideas seem to benefit who the most? Go ahead, answer it. It's you. Since we know you'll write this off as me being salty, or clueless, yada yada.

I think that regardless of hate for EQMS all avid PVPers can agree that consensual PVP could use some love.

 

[Kilike]

Didn't return to Rust, my pc is too crappy to play it after an update that changed how light was coded, my PS4 on the other hand lol, but thank you.

Nope, if you want PVP to flourish you need to do 2 things:

1. incentivize it to encourage participation
2. make it newbie friendly -- the less scripts necessary, the more newbie friendly PVP gets, the more people get you into PVP.

No I agree with these two things. However the actual solution isn't what anyone here wants, and honestly saps a bit out of it. Wanna know how these issues got fixed in the past? Origin themselves addressed said issues.

So we want pixels to encourage participation and we want to make it newbie friendly. Well Insurance would allow said newbies to pvp almost risk free, (still lose regs,pots,pouches etc), while keeping their armor and weps. It's a nice goldsink, AND pvpers earn some gold(Though not tons), per kill they get. HOWEVER on our server that wouldn't work alone either, because well, we'd only be insuring Exceptional-Invul items. (minus the few people with really good runics). So do we add new items? BUT BUT we don't want item based pvp! Let's forget that our PVM is completely 100% item based, with powerful pets that in some cases, exceed any AOS style items/skills.

Honestly all the cool incentives in the world right now wouldn't change the fact that ebolt railing is boring. Adding incentives won't fix this, adding new layers would.

INB4 but insurance is gay, (I KNOW I agree, but you want newbies on the field, this gets it),

Items?!?! Oh no! I promise it's really not all that bad, (plus gives people even MORE of a reason to farm stuff outside of RDA's and Champs, which will still both be booming). It's not like we have to add EVERYTHING either.

Skills? Huh what? Pally alone, brings dexers up to par with mages, both in terms of skill and usefulness in solo and group. Oh and is another great gold sink(assuming we leave LRC out of the equation) Necro is solid for both classes, Hell really so is pally depending on the build. Of course Mage would see some tweaks as well as they would be unplayable otherwise.

NO I'm not saying clone AoS, I'm not even saying become an AoS server, but that doesn't mean we cant use things that they did that clearly worked. I mean we're no where near Era accurate at this point, not even a little. Why not truly make the game unique to anything else, and do what we must to balance it? Oh and remove recalling in/out of spawns for the love of Odin.

As I suggested to Shane the other day, these types of things could be added to the game in an event much like Zombieland. A long event that changes how you play (just like zombieland). It would allow him and his staff to see how everyone reacts to it, how it works, tweak it as they see fit, AND allows us to test it and see if maybe that's something we would want going further.



Incoming hate I know. I'll see myself out.




----NO AOS DIDN'T KILL UO, UO REACHED IT'S HIGHEST POPULATION DURING THIS TIME----- The increased Sub cost, and people claiming it was the "bright colors" is what people claim did.

 

[kolbycrouch]

Having insurance/Trammel facet would ruin this server.

I've been playing AoS for 10+ years, and it's easy to see how it encourages stagnation in most areas of the game.

People don't have consensual pvp even with LRC, and only losing 3k in insurance.

You would see how they would only fight over something that has some in-game value. Usually spawns.

There needs to be some incentive that is encouraged.

The bounty system hinders spawn raiding. On AOS, spawn raids are the PvP. Maybe wide no-cut zones around spawn areas?

I agree that the itemization turns away new/bad players from taking the risk.

new/bad players can't afford the loadout + wands when they die so often.

Maybe make wands a little more common, and fix layered/armored cloth stacking so affordable weapons don't suck as much.

 

[Arch Enemy]

Honestly all the cool incentives in the world right now wouldn't change the fact that ebolt railing is boring. Adding incentives won't fix this

QFT. You can't stop people from teaming up into massive zergs, and you can't stop people from relying on target closest unless you create a proprietary client and force everyone to use it. Until then, PvP on this server will always be boring as fuck. That's not to say that this is the only thing wrong with PvP on this server, far from it, but it would at least stop the mindless spell railing that's so rampant in PvP... until someone finds a way to modify the client, which is pretty much inevitable. UO will just never be what it used to be.

 

[Kilike]

QFT. You can't stop people from teaming up into massive zergs, and you can't stop people from relying on target closest unless you create a proprietary client and force everyone to use it. Until then, PvP on this server will always be boring as fuck. That's not to say that this is the only thing wrong with PvP on this server, far from it, but it would at least stop the mindless spell railing that's so rampant in PvP... until someone finds a way to modify the client, which is pretty much inevitable. UO will just never be what it used to be.

We can't blame the clients, when other servers use them and have/had fun pvp. Uoassist was a thing back in the day, so you cant really argue that it wont ever be what it was. Not to mention the mass amounts of easyuo on official servers that went unchecked.

Having insurance/Trammel facet would ruin this server.

This gets said a lot. I'd love to hear a really solid argument against it that isn't "well it spreads the player base too thin". The issue right now is CONSENSUAL PVP, not PKing. So how exactly does tram or insurance affect that? Those who don't consent, would obviously stay there, and those that do would be in Fel. (I'M NOT advocating that we add Tram, just pointing out the flaw in peoples argument against it.)

 

[kolbycrouch]

This gets said a lot. I'd love to hear a really solid argument against it that isn't "well it spreads the player base too thin". The issue right now is CONSENSUAL PVP, not PKing. So how exactly does tram or insurance affect that? Those who don't consent, would obviously stay there, and those that do would be in Fel. (I'M NOT advocating that we add Tram, just pointing out the flaw in peoples argument against it.)

I did. I'm saying it won't help make consensual pvp.

Playing only AOS servers for 10+ years, even ones with legal scripting etc.

Even with almost nothing lost from dying, people still don't pvp often without items on the line.

Adding Tram/Insurance/Mods won't help anything, but it will make some things worse.


My suggestion is to increase faction pvp incentive, and make pvp specific items more obtainable.

Make wands drop more frequently.

Fix people wearing mils worth of blessed/armored/layered hats/robes.

Mages will have a dirt cheap load-out again, and dexxers will be able to use affordable weapons.

 

[Kilike]

Fix people wearing mils worth of blessed/armored/layered hats/robes.

Talk about ruining this server. This would do that. Remove peoples pixels or make it so they can lose them? Well they're gone. While removing a big income for the server?

Tram wise: It wouldn't add to consensual pvp, no, but it wouldn't take away from it either. Which was my point. Again still not saying I want Tram, because I don't. The argument just has no bearing on consensual pvp.

As for incentives. I'm not sure I can make this anymore clear. They won't fix pvp, period. Pvp needs to be tweaked mechanically. It's boring as hell to ebolt rail.

 

[GluttonySDS]

What is so expensive in PVP that cant already be blessed? All you need to PVP is 5k worth of regs and pots and some friends(200k).

 

[kolbycrouch]

Talk about ruining this server. This would do that. Remove peoples pixels or make it so they can lose them? Well they're gone. While removing a big income for the server?

Tram wise: It wouldn't add to consensual pvp, no, but it wouldn't take away from it either. Which was my point. Again still not saying I want Tram, because I don't. The argument just has no bearing on consensual pvp.

As for incentives. I'm not sure I can make this anymore clear. They won't fix pvp, period. Pvp needs to be tweaked mechanically. It's boring as hell to ebolt rail.

I didn't say remove pixels. I just thinks it's a bit much that you can get so much armor from blessed clothing.
I think it would help the complaint that affordable weapons don't hit some players hard enough.

I didn't say tram would hurt consensual pvp.
I said it won't help anything, but it will lead to plenty of other problems.

You're perfectly clear about your opinion on incentives, you're just wrong.
I've seen it all day long, where mega rich players will pvp all day long if there are spawns to compete for.
Those same players play a lot less often/not at all with no incentive. I've seen it on every server I've played on just about.

You might be right about changes being needed, but mechanics changes alone won't dramatically increase pvp.

 

[Peav]

As long as there is nothing to fight over other than braggin rights and PVE objectives i doubt any changes to the current system will help.

lower chance for relic drops that people are not fucked to do champs and will pvp/pk more.

 

[Darkarna]

I didn't say remove pixels. I just thinks it's a bit much that you can get so much armor from blessed clothing.
I think it would help the complaint that affordable weapons don't hit some players hard enough.

I didn't say tram would hurt consensual pvp.
I said it won't help anything, but it will lead to plenty of other problems.

You're perfectly clear about your opinion on incentives, you're just wrong.
I've seen it all day long, where mega rich players will pvp all day long if there are spawns to compete for.
Those same players play a lot less often/not at all with no incentive. I've seen it on every server I've played on just about.

You might be right about changes being needed, but mechanics changes alone won't dramatically increase pvp.

The problem when you focus a server specifically around PVP is that it also stagnates the other areas of the game. Ultima Online has always been about fine balance, the same applies when Trammel was introduced. Numbers increased for a while, the new safety net allowed fresh players to Ultima Online a sense of freedom, allowing them to farm without harassment or player orientated risk, yet where that satisfied some people it actually caused the downward spiral of the official servers *along with stupid changes etc*.

Not directing this to you Kolbycrouch, but I have no idea why folks would think that item insurance would be beneficial in anyway, all it does is remove another element of risk vs reward, especially since earning gold here is extremely simple. In all fairness, instead of dedicating countless hours on PVP, more should be done regarding the other areas of the game, not including tamer content since they have bucket loads already.

 

[Arch Enemy]

I didn't say remove pixels. I just thinks it's a bit much that you can get so much armor from blessed clothing.

You can get 8 armor from a +5 faction shroud, +2 helm, and +1 cloak, all blessed. 8 AR is basically useless since the armor nerf and dexers still hit hard as fuck even with a full set of barbed leather + blessed clothing.

Or is Patricus (EQMS) still running around with 90 AR from armored robes in every single layer since they introduced the layering deeds? I thought they fixed that. (though I honestly have no clue how staff could have had so little foresight on that issue to not see it coming in the first place)

 

[Peav]

You can get 8 armor from a +5 faction shroud, +2 helm, and +1 cloak, all blessed. 8 AR is basically useless since the armor nerf and dexers still hit hard as fuck even with a full set of barbed leather + blessed clothing.

Or is Patricus (EQMS) still running around with 90 AR from armored robes in every single layer since they introduced the layering deeds? I thought they fixed that. (though I honestly have no clue how staff could have had so little foresight on that issue to not see it coming in the first place)

Yes, I gave eppy the idea of this being exposed before even launching it on donation vendor.

 

[GluttonySDS]

You can get 8 armor from a +5 faction shroud, +2 helm, and +1 cloak, all blessed. 8 AR is basically useless since the armor nerf and dexers still hit hard as fuck even with a full set of barbed leather + blessed clothing.

Or is Patricus (EQMS) still running around with 90 AR from armored robes in every single layer since they introduced the layering deeds? I thought they fixed that. (though I honestly have no clue how staff could have had so little foresight on that issue to not see it coming in the first place)

Patricus has faction commander armor... however anyone complaining about armor is missing the point that 5 newbs with 40 each reg, no pots, and a purple robe is far better at defense than 75AR.

If you think armor(or any items) is whats holding you back from PVPing then you are probably doing it wrong.

 

[Peav]

Patricus has faction commander armor... however anyone complaining about armor is missing the point that 5 newbs with 40 each reg, no pots, and a purple robe is far better at defense than 75AR.

If you think armor(or any items) is whats holding you back from PVPing then you are probably doing it wrong.

your ape logic is bananas.

 

[kolbycrouch]

The problem when you focus a server specifically around PVP is that it also stagnates the other areas of the game. Ultima Online has always been about fine balance, the same applies when Trammel was introduced. Numbers increased for a while, the new safety net allowed fresh players to Ultima Online a sense of freedom, allowing them to farm without harassment or player orientated risk, yet where that satisfied some people it actually caused the downward spiral of the official servers *along with stupid changes etc*.

Not directing this to you Kolbycrouch, but I have no idea why folks would think that item insurance would be beneficial in anyway, all it does is remove another element of risk vs reward, especially since earning gold here is extremely simple. In all fairness, instead of dedicating countless hours on PVP, more should be done regarding the other areas of the game, not including tamer content since they have bucket loads already.

This is more or less what I was saying.