GM Hiding/Stealth Vs 0 Tracking

[Kaliron Oceania]

When cure pots were changed the justification was a greater cure potion shouldn't completely negate a GM Skill.

You currently have Hiding/Stealth being negated by 0 real tracking, can this please me looked at?

Thieves took a powerscroll nerf from champ spawns to combat running scripters which was fair enough, however they were told they would have to be 'real' thieves and stealth in, steal a scroll and stealth out. Which currently doesn't work because of the tracking issue.

 

[Experience]

In my tests, you can track a player from around 8-10 tiles with 0 tracking I'd say it's a bit broke

 

[Kith kannen]

+1

 

[Karl Sagan]

1. The Powerscroll nerf was not fair to thieves, making powerscrolls effectively un-stealable (or rather the act of stealing them effectively un-survivable). Should have just made them drop to the bank box.

2. I like stealth/track how it is now. I think the ability to track counters the stealth mechanics (no step counting, can stealth immediately after hiding). I do think it should be toned down some so you can only track like 5 squares around you MAX at 0 tracking.

 

[Darkarna]

Believe it or not, it is actually fair since stealth activates without delay. If tracking was to be fixed, stealth would also need to be changed to compensate.

 

[TheFallen]

It's the trade off. 0 tracking working or. .. Must activate stealth every time and count steps and delay between hiding and stealth.
From a stealth perspective I certainly prefer the way it is. When hunting a stealth I'd love them to have to wait before they begin walking away.

 

[Jakaro]

Personally, I think I'd rather go with the counting steps shenanigans. Even if Stealth is nerfed in this way, this means that people will still have to dedicate skill points to tracking in order to find you. Stealthing is useless in a combat setting if people with 0 tracking can find you easily, no matter how far you're able to walk. I do enjoy being able to walk through entire dungeons without pausing, however.

Question while we are on the topic-- any benefit at all to 100 stealth vs 80 stealth? Can I walk around with leather armor on w/ 100 stealth?

 

[Experience]

you get to take 2 more steps before each stealth check. As for armor, even with just a leather gorget on at GM stealth, there is a chance to fail/be revealed....

 

[Experience]

I don't mind people being able to track me with 0 tracking..it's the range they get at 0 i have a problem with....i have hiding and stealth on my t-hunter thus i use him to move about for rune marking...pk's use their 0 tracking and end up raping me.....all you have to do is spam tracking til you get a reading, then cast reveal and they are found!

 

[Guttersnipe]

Believe it or not, it is actually fair since stealth activates without delay. If tracking was to be fixed, stealth would also need to be changed to compensate.

I disagree. 0 skill should never counter 100-200 points invested. Remember, not everyone with hiding takes stealth too. The zero tracking thing is bullshit. I love insta-stealth, but I'd take a delay if they'd fix this.

 

[TheFallen]

Tracking does not negate hiding / stealth. You still need to be revealed and caught. If you have some skills you can escape 90% of one on one even when you are being tracked right away. Now if there are ten people there and you steal (because we are really only talking about thieves here) ya you might have a hard time surviving. The current rule set is much more in favor of the thief than delayed stealthing and if find you can't escape you are either taking to big of risks or not skilled enough.

 

[Bunnky]

I don't think the stealth mechanic on this server gives a good enough reason to allow 0 tracking to be as successful as it is. It's mind blowing that you can use 0 skill tracking. That's basically an 8th free skill, regardless of the pros or cons.

With all of the thieving issues as of late, leaving tracking the same is an extra kick in the nuts for thieves, and boosts the failure rate as well. If champ zone mechanics on stealing are to stay the way they are, I think tracking should require GM level to be successful in champ zones as well. Did we forget we have reveal?

It goes way beyond thieving too. If I can successfully track with NO skill, then why can't I spirit speak with no skill? Surely there's a big difference there. Noone would be affected by spirit speak or begging working with 0 skill, but EVERY stealther is affected by tracking. The reasoning behind tracking working with no time put into it makes no sense in this risk vs reward heavy server.

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[Calamity]

I suggest you do what the rest of the people who leave town do, get defensive skills. Thieves should not have it any different.

Stealing snooping hiding stealth resist wresting (magery for healing & teleport)

I promise you if you Equip yourself with Amor and potions Healing Regs teleport str pots get wrestling have a stun punch you can get away. With ease.

 

[Nanashi]

I agree that 0 tracking should not be able to reveal unless your about less than 5 tiles away. While it is also very difficult to find a stealth character if they are smart enough to keep walking and spamming hide. But in all honesty I think it is fine the way it is because the game is built around YOUR characters template. Whelp, if you don't have tracking than its fair enough that someone has hide/stealth and vis versa. Same goes for a dexxer without magery or whatever skills you decide to use. It looks broken because we only look at it from a thieves perspective and not the other way around. I've played on both sides of the fence and while I do like to stealth, you can easily get caught.

 

[Messremb]

unless they fix stealth and stealing there is no way to justify removing the only defense against them. Currently what I would consider the broken mechanics are:

Insta stealth after hiding (its great but hiding and stealth are separate skills and should have timers like on OSI)
counting steps while in stealth
stealing should reveal when activated not when target is selected. (currently this allows you to steal with only .25 seconds chance for someone to do something)
Tracking should not work at 0 skill
should not be able to use items in a locked chest.

IMO they need to fix all of that or it will tip the current balance in favor of one class or the other. personally I hope they do fix all that, but I doubt they will, and I'm fine with the way it all works. like @TheFallen said, if your not an idiot you can get away 90% of the time.

 

[Experience]

I suggest you do what the rest of the people who leave town do, get defensive skills. Thieves should not have it any different.

Stealing snooping hiding stealth resist wresting (magery for healing & teleport)

I promise you if you Equip yourself with Amor and potions Healing Regs teleport str pots get wrestling have a stun punch you can get away. With ease.

You cannot wear armor while stealthing therefore you are at a huge disadvantage to begin with...

Tracking does not negate hiding / stealth. You still need to be revealed and caught. If you have some skills you can escape 90% of one on one even when you are being tracked right away. Now if there are ten people there and you steal (because we are really only talking about thieves here) ya you might have a hard time surviving. The current rule set is much more in favor of the thief than delayed stealthing and if find you can't escape you are either taking to big of risks or not skilled enough.

once you use tracking if you cast Reveal they will be revealed....the range on this spell is HUGE compared to other shards i've played...if you can hit them with 0 tracking= withing 8-10 tiles. which means easily within range of a Reveal.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Also, tracking with zero points doesn't affect just thieves. It hits any template that incorporates hiding. Zero skill should not negate 100 points.

 

[Darkarna]

If a fix is implemented where stealth becomes hot key toggled based or with a delay, this would add a much larger nerf to the thief class generally. I have used both methods of stealth over different servers and I can tell you from experience, stealth becomes a damn sight less useful if you have delays or have to use the skill. Granted, one could argue that this requires more skill to use effectively and makes you a better player for it but hasn't the thief class already been through enough?

Take into consideration what we have here, we have a skill that does not use delay and does not need to be skill toggled, this in my eyes completely negates the negative side of tracking working 100% *Actually doesn't work 100% of the time.* If tracking was changed to be skill based, then stealth would need to be changed to compensate as stealth would then become extremely over-powered, some would argue now that stealth is over-powered.

Leave things the way they are, stealth will seriously become a burden to you if its gets changed with delays or skill toggle.

 

[Experience]

Nothing needs to be changed with stealth...Not being able to wear armor while stealthing is risk enough. Tracking just shouldn't work with literal 0 skill...i don't care if they can track me at 3-5 tiles with 1.0 skill as long as they have a chance to fail rather than just use 0 tracking and get my trail from 8-10 tiles with no failure. 180 invested points of hiding/stealth should not be negated by 0 invested points.

 

[wreckognize]

@Jakaro the benefit is like maybe 10 AR. i needed high 90's to never fail with 6 AR. so 10 is my guess. Before the armor changes, it was totally useless to have gm. Now? still pretty useless.
@Darkarna obviously an experienced stealther here, trust in darks opinion here.

The rest of you need to throw all the logic you just tryharded and throw it out the window. Any change to tracking would make stealth totally overpowered. The current system is balanced and has been proven by over a year now of gameplay. Trust your local veterans.