Faction PVP / Murderers, the original sin of every shard (from an old player)

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Stefano

Neophyte
Hi everyone.

First of all, let me say a couple of things:
- This is not a whining post nor a trolling one
- This post comes from a person who played UO since 1999, scripted a couple of shards (Using POL, RunUO, UO3X, SunUO), hosted some other. Not a complete ignorant in UO mechanics, then.

I thinks this is a great shard. I'm glad to have found it googling some time ago, and I'm glad I decided to remove the dust and the rust from my UO playing. I honestly think Devs here have done an incredible job creating new contents and a huge player base, something that I remember only from the old years, when you could have thousands of players on a free shard, and usually have it crash because hardware usually sucked :)

I'd like to share a thought about how people often misunderstand the difference between PVPing, which is sane, normal, regular and incredibly funny, and being a plain old murderer (and often a chain murderer and an harasser, the line is really thin).

In the old days, way before trammel/felucca, you usually had two server guilds, "Order" and "Chaos", which btw was what Garriot intended to have in this game. They fought on sight, everywhere. But both of guilds where "honest" in the meaning that they were both "blue", the did not commit criminal acts, and just share the world fighting to control it. In the middle, all "peasants" and "peons", meaning with it all the player not interested in fighting, could live their on live.
In this world, there were obviously also criminals, thieves, and murderers. But, both common criminals like thieves and bloody murderers knew that their live had to be harsh and hard. They chose to live on the edge or even beyond. Bucca was their only safe port in the storm. It was thrilling, it was completely RPG. I didn't know any single real murderer in this game that wanted to be part of a guild of murderers. They wanted and longed to be alone, creating some interesting rpg plot for them.

Unfortunately, the mechanics here gives the possibility to people to create murderers guilds, with dozens of red people roaming freely. Yes, they could lose their equip and waste money if the die (i usually see this reason in this forum), but the point is, a guild of murderers is something so completely unrealistic that spoils the fun.

What you red guilds should look for is PvP, not murdering everyone. Use the faction system. You don't need to be Dread Lord, and for sure the world don't need a guild of Dread Lords!

Beside, I don't mind being killed, this is not, I repeat, a whining post, because being killed in a dungeon or in the open is a chance. I personally hate being killed by blue players that just jump on your fight with a monster and steal the loot, or worse block you from recovering your belongings by chain killing you. But if I encounter a PK, i just try to recall away, If I can. No hate.

I'm only try to express a point of view, in what I think is the original sin of almost every shard I played in the last years. Mixing PvP with PKing, which are two completely different things, at least, they should be different, because they should be approached by different people, with different idea of the game.

What's the point in roaming in 5-6 reds, and kill a single bard which is exploring a dungeon solo? I honestly don't get it. While I perfectly understand being killed by a single PK, hidden somewhere, that just attack me and kill me - because he's a murderer! - i don't get the meaning of a bunch of red jumping on a single player who obviously can't be a menace, specially if he doesn't belong to a guild and so can't be considered an "enemy".

I heard for years justifications like "I've been born by a devil and I have to kill everything that lives" ... bullshits, i always answered then, and I do it now too :)

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to share my thoughts, I know that there will be some red who will understand my point because usually play solo and is frustrated by the existence of those "roaming reds", and I know also that some people with difficulty in reading will call me forum troll or worse.

Just to close, I'm 37, so please spare me comments like "go crying to parents and blabla", because I think my time for these things is long gone ;-)

P.S. probably i did some grammar mistake. I'm not an english native, so I guess it's normal.

Have a nice day everyone
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
You've made a nice post here but it won't change a thing. The biggest part of the Red player base lacks any sort of honor and could care less about the longevity of the shard. They are full of self entitlement. Then you have the so called PVP players... go read one of the PVP threads and you'll see where their heads are. They are to busy measuring the size of their dicks to care about anything else. Unless Shane or Adam force a change things will just stay the same. They won't tho, because they've said it a few times now... in their opinion PVP on UOF is fine. It might be who knows? If it's not, I just hope the reason for not addressing isn't the fear of loosing population for the short term!
 
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Malkraven

Grandmaster
Oddly enough i remember big groups of reds between Brit guard zone and the moon gate almost evreytime i left the gz. pre tram. Actually i remember pretty big red guild's from day 1 of my UO life to now.....

i also remember people crying about it maybe not 5 diff cry forums topic per week but hey people evolve.....
 

GluttonySDS

Grandmaster
If you die as a red you cannot play for 2 days.

EQMS is a guild of red factioners -- when there is no faction PVP, we look elsewhere for kills.

If you farm up 100k, you can join EQMS -- either to join in the killing or to be spared from it.

It's upto the player, not the staff, to change your situation.
 

Guwap

Grandmaster
If you run around popular dungeon spots PKing in a group, before long you will run into another group of either PKs or anti-PKs. Now that's where the fun starts! Maybe what you feel is wrong could be a difference in Bartle Test results where the strict PvPer is a Killer Achiever and the PKer is a Killer Socializer. Saying that murderers in groups should only look for faction fights might negate the goals they have as murderers, like being born by a devil and having to kill everything that lives.

With the exception of EQMS, PK guilds on this server don't roll that deep. Most of the time I'm with 2-3 guys when PKing. If we run into another group in a dungeon it's usually an even number fight. In prime time of course the numbers will be higher because everyone wants to hang out on comms and kill people together. This goes for blue PvP/anti-PK guilds as well.
 

Stefano

Neophyte
If you die as a red you cannot play for 2 days.

EQMS is a guild of red factioners -- when there is no faction PVP, we look elsewhere for kills.

If you farm up 100k, you can join EQMS -- either to join in the killing or to be spared from it.

It's upto the player, not the staff, to change your situation.

You see, this is exactly the point I was trying to explain. You have all the rights to play your own way, but I still don't get the point. When you can't play pvp, you just roam ruining the play of every non factioner you encounter. Without any background justifying that.

what can I say? Have fun, I just can't understand what kind of fun yo can find in this playstyle but... not a problem for me ;-)
 

Stefano

Neophyte
not everyone cares about "background" or roleplaying.
That's obvious. I personally never bothered much about having a solid background. I used to play (on shard with only one account per person allowed) my salesman/craftsman more than any other type of character, because I really loved what UO let you do as a crafter.
But again, the point is: nobody is forced to have a background, but acting like a bully against people who want to have nothing to share with factions and wars is something that after a while becomes not funny.

Nobody forces anybody to be kind and gentle, or to act like a Knight of the Round Table, of course. The whole point in my argument is: a veteran and experienced player should know when and where kill another player. The statement "I will kill everyone" is not proof of ability, is just lack of judgement.

When I was a RICH craftsman on my first shard (and believe me, for those times I was awfully rich ;-) ), I knew that every time I was about to leave a town, I was in serious danger. Every criminal knew my character name by then, and I totally accepted to be hunted down. I was worth it. Because I usually travelled with items to be sold and I didn't have magery. Runebooks didn't exist, etc. etc.

Again, I ask: killing someone who's clearly not a threat, not wealthy, not worth even the time spent to kill it... is it really worth it?
People will say yes. I accept it, I just don't agree. I like when I encounter people that show the ability to judge if a killing is necessary or not.

I'm not asking for changes here, to anyone. Just sharing thoughts, and I appreciate that you are using time to answer and motivate.
 

kurtis

Grandmaster
Murderer guilds have always been a thing. This was even more true back when there was perma stat loss because the consequences for death were so high. PK's would usually roll out with blue healers too.

One thing I think you'll realize is that the "good ol' days" are a thing of the past, regardless of what shard you play. Even so, I still don't see the value of rolling in such big groups, as it seems incredibly boring, but it has never struck me as that big of a problem.
 

FrogX

Expert
I've encountered countless solo Reds on this server, and those guys are risking considerably more than 99% of the PvE players. Basic precautions such as the Protection Spell, having a planned escape route, trapped pouches, and pots/scrolls will help you easily avoid most ganks. Killing them is both profitable for you & painful for them, if you think there aren't enough anti-PKs out there it's up to YOU as a player to do something about it. Most reds drop very decent items & will usually buy their head back for a fair price through the bounty hunter system making them quite profitable to kill, so what's stopping you?

And the thing you said about reds never being in a "murdering guilds" back in the day is just plain not true. GoDs of Wrath clan for example...

You see, this is exactly the point I was trying to explain. You have all the rights to play your own way, but I still don't get the point. When you can't play pvp, you just roam ruining the play of every non factioner you encounter. Without any background justifying that.

what can I say? Have fun, I just can't understand what kind of fun yo can find in this playstyle but... not a problem for me ;-)

It's not just about ruining their day, you can actually make pretty decent money off hunting the innocent.

But in contrast you will usually get a pretty decent haul off killing a murderer, and on average their loot is worth more than the loot from your average blue. Plus as Glutt already said you can stat them and they can't use that char for 48 hours.
 
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Lexington

Grandmaster
"Player driven solutions" It's easy to say, but with the current UOF population, do you really think it will ever happen?

Without a serious incentive that comes from the owners, I doubt it? To many here have and or play reds. You need an incentive for them to play blue anti PKs. Someone had a great idea a few weeks ago. I think it came from another server I don't remember but it was interesting.
 

FrogX

Expert
"Player driven solutions" It's easy to say, but with the current UOF population, do you really think it will ever happen?

Without a serious incentive that comes from the owners, I doubt it? To many here have and or play reds. You need an incentive for them to play blue anti PKs. Someone had a great idea a few weeks ago. I think it came from another server I don't remember but it was interesting.

You already have incentive. You don't lose your char for 48 hours when you die on your blue, you get better loot from reds than blues, and you have the bounty hunter system to make even more money off it. You have basically nothing to lose and everything to gain by anti-pking on this shard. The thing is I don't see any of these whiners who constantly complain about reds taking any incentive and even making a PVP template blue chars, let alone trying to start up anti-pk guilds.

By the way I don't even have a red atm I'm maining an archer/bard which is a pretty defenseless character in PVP, and I still don't find reds to be anywhere near the problem the whiners are making it out to be. I almost always get away, and even when I don't i lose maybe 5k worth of loot if I'm unlucky; that's nothing, and most of the reds are even cool enough to leave my bow on my corpse. The thing is anyone with a basic knowledge of this game can see that with statloss & bounty hunter the risk vs reward mechanics are already in-place, it's an extra risk for PKing and an extra reward for anti-PKing.
 

halygon

Grandmaster
Hollow victories are hollow.

Fight with honor.

That's the message here, folks. Sack up.
Exactly. And don't get heals from your friends or ask them to dump on a guy that is 1v1ing you -- especially when you are a PvP tamer (with pets) and self proclaimed one of the best PvPers on the shard.

Hypothetically speaking of course.
 
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