Eliminate PKs

[Psyc420]

UO - without the risk of PK's... would make this game boring pretty quickly :/

 

[Yoko Kurama]

@Shane @allpks

PKing is game sanctioned griefing. There is no value to it as a play style or to the enjoyment of the game. It is a flaw that was corrected by OSI with the advent of Trammel and every MMO since. Let me explain...

It's griefing because it allows one player to ruin the enjoyment of another. You call it a play style, but that is just an excuse. If the way you get your fun is by ruining mine, you're a griefer, period. There is no other form of player interaction in which one player intentionally and maliciously does harm to another player and it's not considered griefing.

"It brings back the nostalgia of the game" or "It puts the fear back into going into a dungeon" - Oh please. I've been playing since 98 and I ran my own server for a while and I can tell you that during that time I have never heard anyone say to me, "this is great, but I wish someone would come and kill me and take all my stuff". I've never heard anyone say "ahh man I just got pk'd, that was awesome!" The truth is this is just a fallacy. If it were true, why not eliminate lock downs in housing? Don't you miss the days when someone would sneak into your house and clean it out when you logged from the game? If you want a challenge in the dungeons, create harder dungeons.

"I enjoy pvp" - Well that's not pvp. Player vs Player combat involves two or more consenting players duking it out. It's a game of skill which takes a long time to master. I respect the hell out of pvpers because I've seen what it takes to practice it and many of them are far better gamers than I am. What you're doing is sucker punching some innocent bystander. That's like saying you're a pro-boxer and then going out and decking some poor guy on the street and stealing his wallet. If PKs truly do enjoy pvp, why is that reds don't attack other reds? (Maybe some do, but I've read that many don't). It's bullying. I don't mean for this to be an attack, I'm simply trying to open your eyes to the truth. If you enjoy pvp, join a faction or pvp guild and play with like minded players and have fun. I applaud you for it.

"There's no challenge to pvm" - First, blame your GM. They should be doing more than just blocking off an area in Ilshenar and calling it a new dungeon. Second, if you wanted a challenge you wouldn't be picking on innocent players just trying to have a good time.

"But I role play a murderer" - still just an excuse for most. Role players use a certain code or set of rules which govern how they interact. If you want to pretend to be a role player, where is your bio, or your community, or your storyline? 99% you don't have one. For those of you who actually do role play a murderer, consider whether or not your victims view it that way. You may still be a griefer.

"Players can fight back" - yes but most don't want to. They are neither geared for it nor skilled for it. Most of them just want to enjoy the game with their friends or spend a few hours earning some gold and unwinding at the end of their day. There are all kinds of people in the world, and that includes people who don't like confrontation of any kind. Say what you want, but they have just as much right to enjoy this game as you do.

"It's just a game" - yes, so why not let me enjoy it? I play this game because it is fun, relaxing, and bring backs good memories. I have met a lot of really great people and I enjoy spending time with them. But we can't do the things we want to do because you prevent it. PKs are like a DOS attack because they are preventing the pvmer from doing what they want to do. I can't go out to a dungeon, I can't do a tmap, I can't even fish without being pk'd! So meanwhile the dungeons remain empty, the seas devoid of activity, and the hard work of the GMs unseen and unenjoyed because of PKs.

"If you allow players to farm dungeons with impunity it hurts the game economy" - this is a valid point, but once again we go back to the Game Master. It is the role of a Game Master to balance the game mechanics. If they're worried about the economy there are many other proven methods for controlling, including gold sinks and reducing loot. Think about all of the other aspects of this game that can't be enjoyed because of PKs and ask yourself if it's worth it.

These are my personal views on the subject, like it or not. I don't expect everyone to agree with any or all of what I've said, but I felt like I had to get this off my chest. I expect to be flamed for them. I expect to be called a carebear (ouch). Bring it on, I'm sure you'll enjoy that form of griefing too. But if you have some concise and valid argument against any portion of what I've asserted I welcome your rebuttal. I promise to respect your views if you have respected mine, it's that simple.

For those of you who fully agree with what I've said, I ask for your support here. Even a simple "I agree with..." or like would go a long way to demonstrating our point of view.

To the GMs, I want to say that I respect and appreciate what you do. I may have painted some of the things you have done as somewhat lazy, but I'm being honest and trying to give you real criticism. I could've sugar coated it but frankly I'm not in the mood. But make no mistake that, aside from these criticisms, this is by far the best server around. It's better than the one I created myself. I've donated to this server because I generally support what you do and I know it's hard, expensive, and sometimes thankless. I just hope you can understand my point of view on this subject. Let this thread speak for itself; they're either going to say I'm right or I'm wrong. All I ask is that you listen.

GO BACK TO TRAMMEL THEN! WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ON A FELUCIA SHARD IF YOU ARE GOING TO CRY!!! Ok, just had to say that. Who is this clown so I can kill him until he goes back to WoW, in shame?

 

[DarkTrais]

You know why all the new MMO's usually suck? There's no risk involved. You just grind all day for loot/skills/quests/whatever, and log off having accomplished the same thing every other player around you accomplished. Everyone's safe and everyone can enjoy the themepark. I think the reason most of us are here is because this era of UO is no themepark. Here you are constantly in danger of thieves or murderers. Is it annoying? Sure. But isn't it a great feeling when you notice the thief near WBB and kill him before he makes off with your loot? Isn't it a rush when you run from a red in the dungeons and manage to recall to safety? When I was training my tamer I saw a red die in shame during the double skill weekend. The dungeon was FULL with tamers and they were each carrying one or two scorps they hadn't released yet. Sure the red killed a few people, but it was priceless when he got blocked by spawn and got killed by a group of lowbie tamers with scorpions and some ebolts.

The risk is what makes this game amazing. There isn't "end-game" content here in the traditional sense, just staying alive is the game.

 

[StegcO]

Seriously?

 

[DocOp]

Not everyone is a sadist. I lose everytime I try to engage a pk, literally. I've not once killed a red. The skill gap is monstrous. I need to learn to right code it seems in order for my character to drink a fucking potion with a short spear in hand. It is a shame though that I started playing this game with 3 friends of mine as we did back in the day. Turns out they didn't like getting a gank squad everytime they went outside of town so now there is just me. It's shitty. While I have trouble saying 'I think it's awesome losing all my shit', my actions do say it as I always lose my shit and keep coming back for more

 

[drasked]

Not everyone is a sadist. I lose everytime I try to engage a pk, literally. I've not once killed a red. The skill gap is monstrous. I need to learn to right code it seems in order for my character to drink a fucking potion with a short spear in hand. It is a shame though that I started playing this game with 3 friends of mine as we did back in the day. Turns out they didn't like getting a gank squad everytime they went outside of town so now there is just me. It's shitty. While I have trouble saying 'I think it's awesome losing all my shit', my actions do say it as I always lose my shit and keep coming back for more

Time to become a pvp beast.

 

[Ryking]

Well thank you all for the mostly civil discourse on the subject. Clearly many of us disagree, and that's ok. It sounds to me like the only logical argument for PKs is to add excitement to the game, which I counter by putting the onus onto the GMs to create better content. The only other argument I remember seeing was an appeal to the economy, which I feel I soundly defeated (but again, agree to disagree).

I also think this conversation produced a lot of great ideas. It seems to me that the one thing we may all agree on is that the GMs need to work harder to maintain balance. What that really means though is something we should continue to discuss. One idea I came up with this morning while reading all of this was a new citizen type. The best time I've had on this server was as a young player (for obvious reasons). But there were down sides to it too, like not being able to camp an idoc for example. What if there was a new citizen type created in which one character per account could be essentially perma-young? Maybe not that status exactly (I dunno what to call it) but something where that character is protected from PKs in exchange for a loss benefits. No idoc camping, reduced stats, reduced loot, whatever. That way you wouldn't have to change the environment at all and those who claim to enjoy the excitement of being pk'd can continue to be victims at their pleasure. I'm just throwing this idea out there for discussion - haven't had a chance to fully think it all the way through so pick it apart, add to it, but let's please try to remain civil. I'm really enjoying the discussion and I'd like to hear all of your opinions.

Thanks again

 

[drasked]

Well thank you all for the mostly civil discourse on the subject. Clearly many of us disagree, and that's ok. It sounds to me like the only logical argument for PKs is to add excitement to the game, which I counter by putting the onus onto the GMs to create better content. The only other argument I remember seeing was an appeal to the economy, which I feel I soundly defeated (but again, agree to disagree).

I also think this conversation produced a lot of great ideas. It seems to me that the one thing we may all agree on is that the GMs need to work harder to maintain balance. What that really means though is something we should continue to discuss. One idea I came up with this morning while reading all of this was a new citizen type. The best time I've had on this server was as a young player (for obvious reasons). But there were down sides to it too, like not being able to camp an idoc for example. What if there was a new citizen type created in which one character per account could be essentially perma-young? Maybe not that status exactly (I dunno what to call it) but something where that character is protected from PKs in exchange for a loss benefits. No idoc camping, reduced stats, reduced loot, whatever. That way you wouldn't have to change the environment at all and those who claim to enjoy the excitement of being pk'd can continue to be victims at their pleasure. I'm just throwing this idea out there for discussion - haven't had a chance to fully think it all the way through so pick it apart, add to it, but let's please try to remain civil. I'm really enjoying the discussion and I'd like to hear all of your opinions.

Thanks again

Why do you even play Ultima Online? (honest question) Seems like there are a lot of games out there that would be more fun for you.

UO is one of the few full loot PK/PVP mmo's left, yet there are 100's of mmo's with a PVE focus.

 

[Ryking]

Why do you even play Ultima Online? (honest question) Seems like there are a lot of games out there that would be more fun for you.

UO is one of the few full loot PK/PVP mmo's left, yet there are 100's of mmo's with a PVE focus.

Why do you want to chase me off so badly? The only thing I don't like about this server is pks and, in the absence of eliminating them altogether, it seems a way to coexist would be a fair compromise. I have as much right to play here as you do. I get why pks like it... you're allowed to grief. What I'm suggesting is allowing griefing to continue as a way to add excitement is a poor substitute for quality content or balance.

 

[drasked]

Why do you want to chase me off so badly? The only thing I don't like about this server is pks and, in the absence of eliminating them altogether, it seems a way to coexist would be a fair compromise. I have as much right to play here as you do. I get why pks like it... you're allowed to grief. What I'm suggesting is allowing griefing to continue as a way to add excitement is a poor substitute for quality content or balance.

I don't want to chase you off at all, i just don't understand your mindset.

Open world PVP and PKing without exclusion is a pretty fundamental part of why i enjoy this game. It's rare to find and it's what specifically drew me to this game and shard.

You seem to be on the complete opposite end of this spectrum, so i find it weird that you would expose yourself to this when there are so many alternatives out there.

It's like getting a mars bar and then complain you don't like chocolate.

 

[Null]

Not everyone is a sadist. I lose everytime I try to engage a pk, literally. I've not once killed a red. The skill gap is monstrous. I need to learn to right code it seems in order for my character to drink a fucking potion with a short spear in hand. It is a shame though that I started playing this game with 3 friends of mine as we did back in the day. Turns out they didn't like getting a gank squad everytime they went outside of town so now there is just me. It's shitty. While I have trouble saying 'I think it's awesome losing all my shit', my actions do say it as I always lose my shit and keep coming back for more

Unequip hands, drink pot, re equip hands.

I live through most pk interactions by having reflect up and hitting my 1 key kop to safe macro.

Pro tip, hide an alt at the entrance to said dungeon so when the pks come in, they walk through your invis self, and take the time to track/reveal/kill your mostly naked alt, giving your main time to recall out if you saw it on your second screen.

Or just don't be hidden on the alt, either way.

 

[Ryking]

It's like getting a mars bar and then complain you don't like chocolate.

I laughed at this one. But a better analogy might be getting a snickers when what you really want is a milky way. All I'm suggesting is that we eliminate (or at least reduce) the nuts.

 

[drasked]

I laughed at this one. But a better analogy might be getting a snickers when what you really want is a milky way. All I'm suggesting is that we eliminate (or at least reduce) the nuts.

All i'm saying is please don't change the amount of nuts as that is why i specifically enjoy this candy bar. Especially since there are a lot of other candy bars out there that already cater to your specific needs while the candy bars out there that cater to my needs are far and few between.

 

[Ryking]

Especially since there are a lot of other candy bars out there that already cater to your specific needs while the candy bars out there that cater to my needs are far and few between.

None by this manufacturer unfortunately, and that level of quality and talent means a great deal to me. Creating a second server is a non-starter just as suggesting I go play somewhere else as it would lead to a reduction in population, which I don't think anyone really wants.

So the only answer is a compromise. We've heard some suggestions there in the form of stat loss and other pk penalties. What did you think of the addition of a protected status for one character with reduced benefits? If you enjoy the thrill of pks (attacker or victim) you can opt out. Needs some careful thought though.

 

[drasked]

None by this manufacturer unfortunately, and that level of quality and talent means a great deal to me. Creating a second server is a non-starter just as suggesting I go play somewhere else as it would lead to a reduction in population, which I don't think anyone really wants.

So the only answer is a compromise. We've heard some suggestions there in the form of stat loss and other pk penalties. What did you think of the addition of a protected status for one character with reduced benefits? If you enjoy the thrill of pks (attacker or victim) you can opt out. Needs some careful thought though.

You are pretty much suggesting (a worse version of) trammel. We all know how that turned out.

 

[Ryking]

Yes Trammel was wildly successful while Felucca suffered. It's almost as if more people wanted not to be griefed...hmm. And before you begin, the fall of UO was not Trammel, it was competitors offering new and higher quality content. To prove my point, they tried (unsuccessfully) to compete with their own 3D version.

But what I just suggested is not at all Trammel. You get to keep your grief if that's what you want, just leave me out of it. Don't make blanket statements like that without supporting it. That's not constructive.

 

[StegcO]

Unequip hands, drink pot, re equip hands.

I live through most pk interactions by having reflect up and hitting my 1 key kop to safe macro.

Pro tip, hide an alt at the entrance to said dungeon so when the pks come in, they walk through your invis self, and take the time to track/reveal/kill your mostly naked alt, giving your main time to recall out if you saw it on your second screen.

Or just don't be hidden on the alt, either way.

Both in party so a message warn you when the alt is killed

Come on stop talk about this, if you remove pk you cann also add Malas , Insurance and lower reagent cost armour.

We all know how it's finished the story with that feature

 

[DocOp]

Unequip hands, drink pot, re equip hands.

I live through most pk interactions by having reflect up and hitting my 1 key kop to safe macro.

Pro tip, hide an alt at the entrance to said dungeon so when the pks come in, they walk through your invis self, and take the time to track/reveal/kill your mostly naked alt, giving your main time to recall out if you saw it on your second screen.

Or just don't be hidden on the alt, either way.

Thank you for that, person who I assume is Jesus based on your pic. I do understand that. I have a fairly decent grasp on the whole hotkey/macro making aspects. It did take me a while. The comment I made about everyone not being a sadist was relevant because I am a sadist. Idc about dying constantly. I got killed twice in my own house and responded only by calling the villain 'ruthless'. I have a smithy to make me all new shit when I lose it all so no big deal here. I was able to stick out the difficulty of getting 'established'. I only wanted to point out that for newbers coming along like I did, it's overwhelming to have to learn the nuances of crafting hotkeys and then putting them into action with people who are diabolical in both their knowledge of the matter and their intentions to rape, pillage, plunder

 

[drasked]

But what I just suggested is not at all Trammel. You get to keep your grief if that's what you want, just leave me out of it. Don't make blanket statements like that without supporting it. That's not constructive.

Being able to opt out of PVP while still taking up space on the map is worse than trammel. Not even going in to what a nightmare it would be to code and balance it.

I doubt we will find a middle ground as our mindsets are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

I just find it fascinating that people actively choose to play one of the last remaining "ruthless games" and try to change it to be more in line with the 30 other mmo's currently out on the market.

 

[Xiulan]

Ryking, I mean no offense but you're wasting your time. Pking is not going to be eliminated on a Felucca shard because that is what defines a Felucca shard and that's what UOF was deliberately created to be.

All you're doing is making it more difficult for compromises that are actually logical and feasible to be implemented, because people can point to threads like this as an example of "the Trammies won't rest until they get full Trammel."

I was kinda surprised to see so many people open to the idea of a small no-pk zone in this thread -- normally there's a gnashing of teeth when anything remotely reminiscent of Trammel gets suggested (and I'm starting to see why). The smart thing would be to back an idea like that that has general support and therefore traction.