Archery love...

wreckognize

Grandmaster
I'm really not saying archery is weak 1v1 at all. It isn't. Against any mage template my scribe archer dexie has no problems at all staying alive, and if the mage doesn't remove reflect he usually ends up dead.

But against any pvp dexie template wearing any skiff of metal armor?? All you can do is run. The damage against AR needs a boost, or you need to be able to drink refresh/cure/heal potions while equipped. Plain and simple.

Why it makes sense: here on UOF every bit of damage you take causes stamina loss, even poison and explo pots. So if you're up against a pvp dexie, chances are good (100%) that you're dealing with one or both of those as soon as the fight begins. You either need to be able to damage him so much before your stamina gets drained that he's almost dead or you need to be able to maintain your status bar.

Plenty of ways to go about it, you could add a cooldown on said potions if they get quaffed whilst equipped with a bow to limit their use, or make arrows and bolts have a chance to penetrate the armor for more damage, or have archery break armor like macing.

There's a reason nobody is rolling archers in a group consistently, and it's that there is nothing consistent about archery on this server, yet every other class offers consistency. Purple potions do consistent damage. Spells do consistent damage. Poison does consistent damage and all of the above are balanced by the use of potions, which archers are exempt from.

I say all this regardless of booty island. I don't see any reason why the mechanics on booty island need to be the same as the rest of the landmass on the server. You could even have a message saying ''you cannot drink potions whilst equipped with a bow on Booty Island'' no?
 

Streets

Grandmaster
@Blair Im gonna make this my last post because it seams like the developers are set in their ways and thats fine. The Game is free i dont have to pay and im not gonna quit ill just playe another mindless tamer, mage or melee. But i also will be done paying real life money to "donate" to this server if i do not like the direction its going either. This is not a "im taking my ball and leaving" nor will it make a dent in the profit for the server but if im not satisfied i have no reason to continue to do so. If i went to a fine dinner and the serverice was not to my liking the tip would be reduced (or removed all together) same for a bar/pub is all i am saying.

That out of the way lets go over some inconsistency:


"Heavy X-bows have the highest base damage in the game, yet someone stated no one uses them. Interesting."

the speed alone is what drives people away. even if you never miss (just for arguments sake) you can completely negate the damage with self heals. you can not keep enough burst or sustained damage that a healer can not recover in a fight.:

http://uoforum.com/threads/pc-heavy-crossbow-silver-vanquishing-surpassingly-accurate.54404/ *second post down 2 slow*

http://uoforum.com/threads/dexxer-with-either-archery-or-alchemy.43351/ * @halygon "Archery sucks at pvp unless you are in a group of archers. These are the facts." (staff member)

http://uoforum.com/threads/pvp-archery.59939/

http://uoforum.com/threads/make-archer-viable-in-pvp.57647/

http://uoforum.com/threads/is-archery-really-that-bad.29370/ (post #14)

you guys read these forums right?


"I don't think allowing archers to use heal pots and cure pots while having a weapon equipped makes much sense, as they can already run forever with bandaids, and attack from range, so it would eliminate one of the few weak spots in the template (when they don't have a bow equipped)."

how is this ever considered a benefit? every character can run forever with bandaids give me a beggar, healer combo i can run for ever and heal. every mage dexer tamer EVERYONE can do this how is this a archery perk? if thats a weekness whats melee dexers weakness? it shure as shit is not range attack with them purple pots never missing! we dont ever have an option for a 1 hander, so every time we disarm to chug our defences (wrestling go to zero) making us even more weaker while we try to heal in our weaken condition. You make it sound as iff we are firing while we run forever and heal?


"I've already said I'm not planning on looking at archery until Booty Island dungeon has been released as I'm sure they will be very strong there."

great news you will look at more pvm content when our issue is pvp! also dont tell somone (not saying you personally but this is another common escape) "yea but a group of archers is deadly" because a group of anything is deadly hell a group of mages pre casting will kill anything faster. Unless you want some free kills for the other players i totally get that, otherwise i really dont see where archery outshines any other skill, whats the role archery is suposed to be?

dont say archer bard because lj bard could be just as efective or archer fisher when i could use any skill to kill the serpents just as easily with a mage it takes the same ammount of work to level archery, it takes the same ammount of skill points to gm it its 100 skill points i can put into another skill and i have far less reward on my archer than i do on my swordsman, tamer, or mages.
 
great news you will look at more pvm content when our issue is pvp! also dont tell somone (not saying you personally but this is another common escape) "yea but a group of archers is deadly" because a group of anything is deadly hell a group of mages pre casting will kill anything faster. Unless you want some free kills for the other players i totally get that, otherwise i really dont see where archery outshines any other skill, whats the role archery is suposed to be?

I'm guessing you're unaware the whole island is a no-mount zone. Stealth archers are going to be insane I'd imagine.
 

wreckognize

Grandmaster
I'm guessing you're unaware the whole island is a no-mount zone. Stealth archers are going to be insane I'd imagine.

stealth archers are going to do well in the mountless zone regardless of being able to drink potions while equipped or doing a bit more damage to armored targets.

But if you are really worried about it consider the fact that these fixes don't even need to function on booty isle
 

Streets

Grandmaster
interesting hopefully its a "no run zone" otherwise the only difference the island will change is the speed at which the mechanics play out. instead or running around trying to kill on horse speed we will be doing it on foot speed.

but lets say for arguments sake archery continues to suck.... then what? are we gonna just be brushed off to the side till "the next expansion?" im sorry but the intent on this server was great but shane has a few to many asshats working on this project at this point. as much as i hate osi shards i am 100% serious and going back at least there some shit is together peace out
 

Messremb

Grandmaster
@Blair Im gonna make this my last post because it seams like the developers are set in their ways and thats fine. The Game is free i dont have to pay and im not gonna quit ill just playe another mindless tamer, mage or melee. But i also will be done paying real life money to "donate" to this server if i do not like the direction its going either. This is not a "im taking my ball and leaving" nor will it make a dent in the profit for the server but if im not satisfied i have no reason to continue to do so. If i went to a fine dinner and the serverice was not to my liking the tip would be reduced (or removed all together) same for a bar/pub is all i am saying.

That out of the way lets go over some inconsistency:


"Heavy X-bows have the highest base damage in the game, yet someone stated no one uses them. Interesting."

the speed alone is what drives people away. even if you never miss (just for arguments sake) you can completely negate the damage with self heals. you can not keep enough burst or sustained damage that a healer can not recover in a fight.:

http://uoforum.com/threads/pc-heavy-crossbow-silver-vanquishing-surpassingly-accurate.54404/ *second post down 2 slow*

http://uoforum.com/threads/dexxer-with-either-archery-or-alchemy.43351/ * @halygon "Archery sucks at pvp unless you are in a group of archers. These are the facts." (staff member)

http://uoforum.com/threads/pvp-archery.59939/

http://uoforum.com/threads/make-archer-viable-in-pvp.57647/

http://uoforum.com/threads/is-archery-really-that-bad.29370/ (post #14)

you guys read these forums right?


"I don't think allowing archers to use heal pots and cure pots while having a weapon equipped makes much sense, as they can already run forever with bandaids, and attack from range, so it would eliminate one of the few weak spots in the template (when they don't have a bow equipped)."

how is this ever considered a benefit? every character can run forever with bandaids give me a beggar, healer combo i can run for ever and heal. every mage dexer tamer EVERYONE can do this how is this a archery perk? if thats a weekness whats melee dexers weakness? it shure as shit is not range attack with them purple pots never missing! we dont ever have an option for a 1 hander, so every time we disarm to chug our defences (wrestling go to zero) making us even more weaker while we try to heal in our weaken condition. You make it sound as iff we are firing while we run forever and heal?


"I've already said I'm not planning on looking at archery until Booty Island dungeon has been released as I'm sure they will be very strong there."

great news you will look at more pvm content when our issue is pvp! also dont tell somone (not saying you personally but this is another common escape) "yea but a group of archers is deadly" because a group of anything is deadly hell a group of mages pre casting will kill anything faster. Unless you want some free kills for the other players i totally get that, otherwise i really dont see where archery outshines any other skill, whats the role archery is suposed to be?

dont say archer bard because lj bard could be just as efective or archer fisher when i could use any skill to kill the serpents just as easily with a mage it takes the same ammount of work to level archery, it takes the same ammount of skill points to gm it its 100 skill points i can put into another skill and i have far less reward on my archer than i do on my swordsman, tamer, or mages.
Wow the old "I won't donate if I don't get my way" approach, that usually ends well...

let me just break down why a group of archers is worse than a group of mages, and dexers.

Mages have cast time, this means they can't cast spells on the run, archers need only stop for a quick sec to deal damage on the run. If you are running from an archer they will start dealing damage a soon as you stop!

Mages are limited in the damage they can do by mana, if you heal through their mana dump they have to wait to attack again. Archers are only limited by the #of arrows they have, you can heal an archer sync, and they will just keep firing no need to stop.

Now a group of alchy dexers.

range, dexers only range attack is pots, and those are weapons that requires skill to use. Also archers can use them too, they just have to give up their insta damage when the player stops. Archers get range attacks and with the right bow actually have a higher hit chance than any dexer.

The only reason archers are not the go to group fight template is the rng can really piss you off.

Why not make archers a better 1v1 template you ask? Well first of I have gotten plenty of kills with my archer mage, so who says they aren't good? If you wanna play a strait archer you will have issues, but that doesn't mean it needs a buff. Also, see my info on group of archers to understand why buffing them would make them OP.

One of the only weaknesses of 2 handed weapons is the need to disarm for pots. It is a very viable tactic to fight them and archers need this weakness too.

archery is fine and when added with Magery can make you very deadly!
 

Streets

Grandmaster
Wow the old "I won't donate if I don't get my way" approach, that usually ends well..."

i stated i am not quitting uo if you dont get that i cant help you understand, its like comming in 1st place in the special olympics, yea you won but your still ********. my point was i "was" a paying customer not just a free loader on the server. does that entitle me to anything special? nope but others may think the same as i do next thing you know the server is dead and no way of funding it just because a few people are stubborn

"One of the only weaknesses of 2 handed weapons is the need to disarm for pots. It is a very viable tactic to fight them and archers need this weakness too. "

but 2 handers dont need to disarm for purple pots any more yet archer has to. see thats the complaint we get the 2 hander restrictions but no bonuses. archer has the negative of only having 2 handers, needing a regent component, being physical attack so being negated by armor and shields, needing to be repaired. none of the bonuses like throwing pots, having a special attack, hitting while moving .


"archery is fine and when added with Magery can make you very deadly!"

see your using another skill to mask archery though ...

campingis fine when added with magery
begging is fine when added with taming
cooking is amazing when added to swords

are you getting what i am saying or am i not conveying myself across well enough?


there is not one circumstance in which another skill does not trump archery. if this is the case then i propose the throwing purple pots while 2 handers are equiped needs to be reverted untill after the expansion when archer can be re evaluated?

"Mages are limited in the damage they can do by mana, if you heal through their mana dump they have to wait to attack again. Archers are only limited by the #of arrows they have, you can heal an archer sync, and they will just keep firing no need to stop."

come on now you got medetation and even if you dont most people dont survive the first dump, and if not you run. an archer has to come to a complete stop befor he can fire. this gives the mage enough time to get a heal off or chug a pot.

"Mages have cast time, this means they can't cast spells on the run, archers need only stop for a quick sec to deal damage on the run. If you are running from an archer they will start dealing damage a soon as you stop!"

mages can also precast, poision so they dot you so your still dealing dammage while on the move, and can root and have range all tools archers cant do


yupyupyupyupyupyupyup
 

Messremb

Grandmaster
Wow the old "I won't donate if I don't get my way" approach, that usually ends well..."

i stated i am not quitting uo if you dont get that i cant help you understand, its like comming in 1st place in the special olympics, yea you won but your still ********. my point was i "was" a paying customer not just a free loader on the server. does that entitle me to anything special? nope but others may think the same as i do next thing you know the server is dead and no way of funding it just because a few people are stubborn

"One of the only weaknesses of 2 handed weapons is the need to disarm for pots. It is a very viable tactic to fight them and archers need this weakness too. "

but 2 handers dont need to disarm for purple pots any more yet archer has to. see thats the complaint we get the 2 hander restrictions but no bonuses. archer has the negative of only having 2 handers, needing a regent component, being physical attack so being negated by armor and shields, needing to be repaired. none of the bonuses like throwing pots, having a special attack, hitting while moving .


"archery is fine and when added with Magery can make you very deadly!"

see your using another skill to mask archery though ...

campingis fine when added with magery
begging is fine when added with taming
cooking is amazing when added to swords

are you getting what i am saying or am i not conveying myself across well enough?


there is not one circumstance in which another skill does not trump archery. if this is the case then i propose the throwing purple pots while 2 handers are equiped needs to be reverted untill after the expansion when archer can be re evaluated?

"Mages are limited in the damage they can do by mana, if you heal through their mana dump they have to wait to attack again. Archers are only limited by the #of arrows they have, you can heal an archer sync, and they will just keep firing no need to stop."

come on now you got medetation and even if you dont most people dont survive the first dump, and if not you run. an archer has to come to a complete stop befor he can fire. this gives the mage enough time to get a heal off or chug a pot.

"Mages have cast time, this means they can't cast spells on the run, archers need only stop for a quick sec to deal damage on the run. If you are running from an archer they will start dealing damage a soon as you stop!"

mages can also precast, poision so they dot you so your still dealing dammage while on the move, and can root and have range all tools archers cant do


yupyupyupyupyupyupyup
What other weapons have a ranged attack with a higher hit chance? Is that not a bonus?

if you can't heal a mage dump you are bad at pvp, and making archers invuln won't help you.

Archers can hit on the run, no cast time, no running out if mana, damage at range and if played right can use all pots to great advantage.

As far as needing other skills all skills are that way. Magery without med and eval is useless, weapon skills without tactics suck, if your point is that archery is used mostly as a support skill you are right, so is alchemy, inscribe, lj, hiding, healing.

Archery is one of the most useful skills, it let's you pvp, pvm, on any toon that has it. The only skill I can think of that's more useful in both pvp and pvm is Magery.

Stop crying and threatening to quit if the devs don't do what you want!
 

wreckognize

Grandmaster
archery is fine and when added with Magery can make you very deadly!

you could easily say the same thing for any melee class as well. That's why bringing support skills into it is a moot point.

Archers can't hit on the run at all, they have to stop. Any competent melee dexie is able to hit you at that time.

Read what the guy wrote. He's just upset because you all are missing the point here. You don't see any archers in the field and there's a reason for that. Total lack of consistency compared to other templates.
 

wreckognize

Grandmaster
it's the same thing as saying stealth archers will do good on booty island. I'm sure any other class will do just as well using stealth.

If you're trying to balance out the weapon skills (which is what this thread is about) then you really have to forget about circumstances like support skills or area mechanics and just look at the ability to cause damage.
 

GriefedYaBish

Grandmaster
@Blair Im gonna make this my last post because it seams like the developers are set in their ways and thats fine. The Game is free i dont have to pay and im not gonna quit ill just playe another mindless tamer, mage or melee. But i also will be done paying real life money to "donate" to this server if i do not like the direction its going either. This is not a "im taking my ball and leaving" nor will it make a dent in the profit for the server but if im not satisfied i have no reason to continue to do so. If i went to a fine dinner and the serverice was not to my liking the tip would be reduced (or removed all together) same for a bar/pub is all i am saying.

That out of the way lets go over some inconsistency:


"Heavy X-bows have the highest base damage in the game, yet someone stated no one uses them. Interesting."

the speed alone is what drives people away. even if you never miss (just for arguments sake) you can completely negate the damage with self heals. you can not keep enough burst or sustained damage that a healer can not recover in a fight.:

http://uoforum.com/threads/pc-heavy-crossbow-silver-vanquishing-surpassingly-accurate.54404/ *second post down 2 slow*

http://uoforum.com/threads/dexxer-with-either-archery-or-alchemy.43351/ * @halygon "Archery sucks at pvp unless you are in a group of archers. These are the facts." (staff member)

http://uoforum.com/threads/pvp-archery.59939/

http://uoforum.com/threads/make-archer-viable-in-pvp.57647/

http://uoforum.com/threads/is-archery-really-that-bad.29370/ (post #14)

you guys read these forums right?


"I don't think allowing archers to use heal pots and cure pots while having a weapon equipped makes much sense, as they can already run forever with bandaids, and attack from range, so it would eliminate one of the few weak spots in the template (when they don't have a bow equipped)."

how is this ever considered a benefit? every character can run forever with bandaids give me a beggar, healer combo i can run for ever and heal. every mage dexer tamer EVERYONE can do this how is this a archery perk? if thats a weekness whats melee dexers weakness? it shure as shit is not range attack with them purple pots never missing! we dont ever have an option for a 1 hander, so every time we disarm to chug our defences (wrestling go to zero) making us even more weaker while we try to heal in our weaken condition. You make it sound as iff we are firing while we run forever and heal?


"I've already said I'm not planning on looking at archery until Booty Island dungeon has been released as I'm sure they will be very strong there."

great news you will look at more pvm content when our issue is pvp! also dont tell somone (not saying you personally but this is another common escape) "yea but a group of archers is deadly" because a group of anything is deadly hell a group of mages pre casting will kill anything faster. Unless you want some free kills for the other players i totally get that, otherwise i really dont see where archery outshines any other skill, whats the role archery is suposed to be?

dont say archer bard because lj bard could be just as efective or archer fisher when i could use any skill to kill the serpents just as easily with a mage it takes the same ammount of work to level archery, it takes the same ammount of skill points to gm it its 100 skill points i can put into another skill and i have far less reward on my archer than i do on my swordsman, tamer, or mages.


tl;dr: you didn't give me what i want so i will no longer donate

#entitlementatitsfinest
 

wreckognize

Grandmaster
yeah archery is great at PvP if you're rolling reptile slayer bows and 120 peacemaking screaming ALL PETS PEACED and killing AEM's meta pets, let's just leave it all broken for another year
 

Kael

Master
I don't think I have been attacked by a pk using archery here since the orcs played. The only players I have seen use archery in a fight are players similar to myself...meaning players that just don't pvp much.

I really don't see why some cure/heal pots and stat buffs pots can tip the status quo of pvp.
 

TheFallen

Grandmaster
Due to the slow nature I would allow refresh pots so that you can still be firing at your fastest slow pace if you survive a dump and don't have to unequip to chug a refresh to then wait for your shot timer again. It would be a place to start and a small buff not likely to completely upset the balance.
 

wreckognize

Grandmaster
much agree fallen, sad that this great idea will probably never see a test run in a world where anything that is changed can always be changed back
 

TheFallen

Grandmaster
i think its small enough to not be crazy but will actually provide some balance on the extreme slowness of bows. I would say change it let it run and announce it as a trial right out of the gate... but im not running the place :)
 

Streets

Grandmaster
I know I said I'm done posting but I just wanted this to be known for archiving.... fish bonuses (same as pots refresh dex, str, etc) can be used without unequiping bows and it's not a balance issue... just saying
 
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