Adding Another Legitimate PvM Class (Parrying)

[Winstonian]

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it needs its own thread.

Right now, PvM is pretty cut and dry: either provoking or taming is required for difficult content, and taming seems to be mandatory for the high-end mobs. That's fair: controlling dragons should be pretty damn powerful. But I think it's possible to tweak a few abilities and add another legitimate PvM class to the mix.

Right now, both parrying and mace fighting are overlooked in PvP: red pots render mace fighting largely irrelevant, and shields hold little value. I feel that improving these two skills against monsters can make a macer/parrying dexxer a significant contributor in a PvM environment.

Parrying - further reduces the physical damage received from a PvM target. If the wielder has resisting spells, magic damage can also be blocked or "deflected" (scaling with the abilities).

Mace Fighting - attacks lower the armor of PvM opponents. Further attacks within a certain period continue this reduction up to a designated amount. (Example: at GM mace/tactics, full reduction is 10%.)

By making these slight adjustments, a variety of new PvM builds would emerge that cater to players that prefer the melee style of play. Macers would be valued for their ability to reduce the target's armor, and the reduced damage received with parrying would allow them to act almost as mini-tanks, slightly reducing the necessity for tamers in high level content. (They would still need to be healed considerably, as dragons are now.)

A bard and macer may be able to be successful together, and the bard may consider grabbing healing to keep his PvMacer (tm) upright. (Mage, med, eval, music, provoke, healing and anatomy could be one such build: the PvMacer (tm) seeks out the damage, so resist isn't as essential. The bard would be able to help heal the macer.) A PvMacer (tm) may grab veterinary to help his taming buddy heal the dragons next to him. (Macing, tactics, anatomy, parrying, resist, lore and vet may be an option, as the macer could still add healing to the dragons taking the damage.)

I feel that these subtile changes to existing and overlooked abilities would make PvMacers (tm) a great addition to the PvM landscape. Thoughts?

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[Jager]

slayer shields, so you can have a tank/parry take the lead, only good for the one type of mob and nothing else? i dunno just popped into my head.

 

[Winstonian]

slayer shields, so you can have a tank/parry take the lead, only good for the one type of mob and nothing else? i dunno just popped into my head.

Yep, something along those lines. It would require that the macer bring around a bunch of shields to handle certain content, but it could definitely work.

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[Winstonian]

Side note: I would not support the change to parrying without the modification to mace fighting. If this is even considered, it should be aimed towards a specific PvM build, and not one that's used in both PvP and PvM.

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[halygon]

Side note: I would not support the change to parrying without the modification to mace fighting. If this is even considered, it should be aimed towards a specific PvM build, and not one that's used in both PvP and PvM.

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Actually both items should be changed regardless of what build they are used in.

Parry is very underpowered here and should provide more protection agains melee attacks from BOTH players and mobs(makes sense to increase the protection against mobs).

Macing should most definitely have increased stamina drain vs other skills (fencing, swords, archery, magery). Right now it appears to be based solely on damage done( more damage more stamina drain).

We have been saying all of this since early last year, yet we have had no changes or responses from the devs.

 

[Winstonian]

Actually both items should be changed regardless of what build they are used in.

Parry is very underpowered here and should provide more protection agains melee attacks from BOTH players and mobs(makes sense to increase the protection against mobs).

Macing should most definitely have increased stamina drain vs other skills (fencing, swords, archery, magery). Right now it appears to be based solely on damage done( more damage more stamina drain).

We have been saying all of this since early last year, yet we have had no changes or responses from the devs.

I don't disagree, but wouldn't making them viable for PvM add more legitimate builds to the PvM pool? Red pots will always make mace fighting less relevant in PvP, but a reduction in monster armor would be a great change for PvM.

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[halygon]

Red pots will always make mace fighting less relevant in PvP

I hear this argument a lot and frankly it's not true. Yes refresh potions cure low stamina, but it's a consumable item. This means 1) you have to have stock available and 2) have to have a free hand to consume. Since there is no running stamina loss, the tactics here are to stam-out someone to make them walk instead of run or to keep their stamina low to prevent fast swing cycles. There are lots of ways to cause either of these tactics to occur.

but a reduction in monster armor would be a great change for PvM.

i agree on this point but not sure that's how parry works (or should work). Parry should only increase your armor rating and also decrease hit chance for opponents. Anything more than this is only making Parry over-powered.

 

[Winstonian]

I hear this argument a lot and frankly it's not true. Yes refresh potions cure low stamina, but it's a consumable item. This means 1) you have to have stock available and 2) have to have a free hand to consume. Since there is no running stamina loss, the tactics here are to stam-out someone to make them walk instead of run or to keep their stamina low to prevent fast swing cycles. There are lots of ways to cause either of these tactics to occur.

i agree on this point but not sure that's how parry works (or should work). Parry should only increase your armor rating and also decrease hit chance for opponents. Anything more than this is only making Parry over-powered.

Lowering a monsters defense was my recommended modification for mace fighting in PvM.

As for the stamina drain: although it's possible, they still aren't nearly as relevant as weapons that are swung fast and can be poisoned. Fencing and swords are preferred in PvP, so lets modify macing to make it strong in PvE.

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[Winstonian]

Double post.

 

[halygon]

Lowering a monsters defense was my recommended modification for mace fighting in PvM.

As for the stamina drain: although it's possible, they still aren't nearly as relevant as weapons that are swung fast and can be poisoned. Fencing and swords are preferred in PvP

. Whoa! Obviously you have never seen a good macer in pvp. Even without the stamina drain, macers have a damage advantage. In fact I would argue that slow and heavy hitting is better than fast and poisonable.

 

[K A Z]

whoever thinks that parrying sucks in 1v1 PVP should go and try to PK one of those shield wielding newbies in Deceit 3 on a dexxer. You'll be fucking amazed.

 

[Winstonian]

. Whoa! Obviously you have never seen a good macer in pvp. Even without the stamina drain, macers have a damage advantage. In fact I would argue that slow and heavy hitting is better than fast and poisonable.

If one wants slower and heavy hitting, lumberjacking is a great option, as they can still switch to a DP katana and chug, and have conc blows.

Macing falls behind the others in terms of PvP.

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[halygon]

whoever thinks that parrying sucks in 1v1 PVP should go and try to PK one of those shield wielding newbies in Deceit 3 on a dexxer. You'll be fucking amazed.

There are a few factioners that have parry.. Lol. I had a fight with one and yeah, parry doesn't suck here, it is just weaker than it should be. Not to mention for pvp it's not seen much because there are better skills to have then parry.

 

[Malkraven]

Not to derail but does parry help vs stun punch?

 

[halygon]

If one wants slower and heavy hitting, lumberjacking is a great option, as they can still switch to a DP katana and chug, and have conc blows.

Macing falls behind the others in terms of PvP.

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As a macer you don't need an extra skill to do big damage. So one can still have inscription or alchemy or whatever also...

One could argue that a Hally wielding dexxor falls into the same category but that is a single weapon without crushing blow.

 

[halygon]

Not to derail but does parry help vs stun punch?

Indirectly. Stun punch requires you to hit your opponent before the stun can go through.. So parry helps prevent the hit from connecting.

 

[Malkraven]

yea i wasn't sure if stun punch went through using same hit mechanics or if it was a % chance,

thanks

 

[Struan]

It certainly would be nice to see a larger cross section of competitive builds...for both pvm and pvp.

Seems like parry and archery both fall short of making the desired skill list for pvp.

Ok..its out there..but I always thought a shield should have a chance to deflect melee attacks and any form of projectiles...(ebolt, arrows,magic arrows, bolts, fire balls etc)

 

[K A Z]

It certainly would be nice to see a larger cross section of competitive builds...for both pvm and pvp.

Seems like parry and archery both fall short of making the desired skill list for pvp.

Ok..its out there..but I always thought a shield should have a chance to deflect melee attacks and any form of projectiles...(ebolt, arrows,magic arrows, bolts, fire balls etc)

Archery is possibly the best group support Skill out there.. And Parrying has never been really good. Thing is that everything has to be balanced at one point to make it fair - and most of those changes would be so crucial that I'd suggest not even to think about them.

 

[Gedron]

Parrying is definitely an underestimated skill. I went toe to toe with a pure dexxer with parrying on my alchy/dexxer and was very surprised.