Remove Trammel Zones

Spinnacus

Neophyte
What originally brought me to this server was the advertisement of "No Trammel". Trammel, of course, being the replicant world of warm fuzzy feelings, gumdrops, and group hugs. The original appeal of UO, that was lost when Trammel was created on OSI, was the darker side of MMO. That feeling you get when you lose something important, the increased value and attachment you have when you know your hard earnings in a game can be taken away at a whim, the rush of getting away with murder in a game... I see so many people gloat and excited about how this server has no Trammel... but it does... doesn't it?

Yes, my point of view may be skewed by the fact that two of my six characters are thieves, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. The point has recently been brought up that programs such as UOSteam, which is available to everyone, are the equivelent of a cheat or hack. I agree with this, as it is an external program bringing capability and functionality that is not native to the game, making it easier to PVP, speedhack, and more. I however feel that having admin created zones such as "The Docks" is no less of a cheat, and certainly is as carebearish as having a full fledged Trammel.

I understand you want a PVP arena area that is safe for players to spectate battles, so the focus can be on the fight, however if you are disabling all negative acts there, you should also disable trading there. Aspects of the game such as Hiding, Snooping, Stealth, Stealing, PvP functionality in the game that allows players to kill other players, and the fact that the game allows for looting of corpses, criminal,and murder flagging all are as important to the true feeling of UO as crafting, taming, PvM, and roleplaying. The world that is created is supposed to be one of danger as much as it is of wonder.

With proper caution and common sense, there are already plenty of safe ways to trade in the game, without creating Trammel zones like the docks. Players can use private vendors to sell items, use skills such as detecting hidden, tracking, and magery (reveal) to ensure the area around them is clear of thieves and reds. They can bring people to their house with secured doors and trade inside. Most importantly, players can build friendships, trusted allies, and guilds that can assist them in safely trading, or in cases when they do get robbed or PKed, exacting revenge and tracking down the offending player. All this is lost when 60% of valuable items are blessed and safe zones such as the docks are created.

The game was designed with rules in place to allow for balanced play. Committing criminal acts causes you to go gray for 125 seconds from most recent criminal act. During this period, you cannot recall or gate out, anyone can attack, kill, or loot you without retribution, healers will not rez you, and you lose karma and fame. Commiting murder puts you in criminal status, and eventually turns your character "red". During this period anyone can attack, kill, loot you without retribution, as well as you can get stat loss when your head is turned in, and many town NPC's will not assist, trade, or rez you.

My point being, the darker roles in the game are as much a part of UO as the rest, having their own challenges to overcome, and having admin created areas for the oppsoite players is the equivelent of installing a program that puts you in god mode or a player "using an aimbot in Counter-Strike".
 

Spinnacus

Neophyte
Furthermore, there's always "goldsinks" being created to help absorb or remove gold from the economy, however do they really work? All that these are, are items that can only be afforded by players that have either been with the game since server launch, players that have been awarded items worth millions by admins for their contributions, or players that sit around the bank and docks all day playing stock brokers, buying, selling, and inflating prices all day. A true gold sink in this game would be to stop making everything blessed (players can lock items down as house decos, leave in secured chests, or in bank), and allow the PKs and thieves to perform their role. Items will spread and gold will circulate as they will take from blues, blues will kill and take from grays and reds, and the cycle will continue. Keep crazy and rediculous items for end-gamers and the wealthy, make goldsink items more affordable for the common players.
 

Struan

Expert
Risk vs reward.

Risk for blues..yep reds. Risk for reds..yep stat loss.

Risk for thieves..ummmm nope. There is no risk for town thieves, only reward. A whole 125 seconds ?!?!? Nope..no risk. no darker side for the thieves. No danger for them.

Dying naked and having to wait a couple of minutes.pffft.

Add risk for thieves. Then get rid of protected areas. Sure.
 

K A Z

Grandmaster
theres still plenty of stuff for thieves to steal. Even with those safe areas. I do understand that people dont like them, though. I think they're quite handy to just have a talk..
 

Malkraven

Grandmaster
i agree its abit trammy but I also agree with Struan, thieves can steal ps for great profit, they can rob gold in dungeons and make great cash, they can steal boats as there dry docked.

most town thieves are just lame ( some have some skill) you just want to steal with a friend to take high end items with no risk to yourself and get rich quick with no effort put in. i do great with my thief and i think compared to most servers we have it "Ok" here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Einaar

Expert
Spin generally has his two chars together, so no one does any trading/vendor buying around him in the first place. I don't think he realizes most people have learned that if you see one of his chars, the thief is nearby. They're Spinnacus and Spinnocus; I don't remember which one is the thief, but when you see the one that isn't, reveal around him and you'll find the thief. Unless, from me posting this, he learns to stop making himself so obvious. :) I'm not trolling, I'm being honest. He always keeps one of his chars unhidden in the vicinity of his thief so personally, I just leave the area when I see him anywhere at all; I'm sure I'm not the only one who has learned this hehe
 

Lexington

Grandmaster
Risk vs reward.

Risk for blues..yep reds. Risk for reds..yep stat loss.

Risk for thieves..ummmm nope. There is no risk for town thieves, only reward. A whole 125 seconds ?!?!? Nope..no risk. no darker side for the thieves. No danger for them.

Dying naked and having to wait a couple of minutes.pffft.

Add risk for thieves. Then get rid of protected areas. Sure.



Risk for thieves.... Jail!!!!!!

If not jail then create a stat loss for thieves... same rules as for Pk's. Allow us to sell back heads and or turn them in for stat loss!

And yes I have a thief 
 

Spinnacus

Neophyte
Each player gets a standard skill cap of 700 points. A thief, pretty much has to use 400 of them for Hiding, Stealth, Snooping, and Stealing. If they plan on being able to heal their selves, they will need to put skills in to Healing or Magery, leaving only 2 other skills GM. If they don't put the skills in Detecting Hidden, then any player can use Hide or Invisibility to get away from the thief. If the thief uses magery to reveal, he gives his position away. So thieves really only get 1 to 3 skills to customize their character. Most thieves never wear armor or defend theirself. If they kill someone, they get a murder count and lose their ability to steal from other players, which pretty much renders them useless until the murder count is gone. Every time they steal in town, there's a chance of getting instantly guard whacked, the victim can keep attacking them until they die by a player's hands, and a thief can never issue a murder count. Thieves can get stolen from by other thieves without retribution. Most players know how to keep their items safe in banks, houses, and secure chests. A thief may have to hunt for a decent item for hours. Yes when they find it, it may only take seconds to take it, but a lot of time can be spent hunting. Some thieves run up and just snag anything, some thieves will follow people around for 20minutes or more waiting for them to pick something up. Some thieves steal semirares from barrels, some do all of the above. There is more to being a thief than just stealing regs. You may see that most frequently, but you have a dramatized viewpoint of what playing as a thief is like. Not to mention, that many players will remember who you are, and if they see you out of town, will kill and loot you, even unprovoked, because they know they can't get a murder count.

Most monsters only take a few seconds to kill, and reward instant loot. They spawn relatively in the same spot on the same schedule. Kill, loot, sell. Tamers with a pair of dragons can solo just about anything, PK's who intend to stay PK really just live with a custom ruleset more than a punishment. Once they are red, they are under a standard style of play, so killing additional players really yeilds no risk at that point. Some players just sit at the docks and bank every day just buying and reselling items to inflate prices, with 0 risk. Each style of play within the game is different, and just because you're not fond of it, the game shouldn't be leaned in your direction. C'mon there were auto reveal zones, extra guards, additional item types blessed, no negative action zones, and more put in place in this game to coddle the Trammies. How can this be a "No Trammel Server" when everything is geared to towards turning Fellucca in to a pseudo-Tram?
 

Spinnacus

Neophyte
The point of this post is that creating coddled guaranteed safety zones, is unfair to the whole "Felucca" side of the game. If zones like the docks didn't exist, many players may choose to trade at their house instead of in town. This can put them and their items at risk of being taken by a PK as much as a thief, which is an original intent of the game design and mechanics. Not to mention that having "The Docks" as the safest trading place in the game is absolutely ironic. "The docks" sounds like it should be the shadiest place in the game where all the "shit goes down". I realize I play as a thief... I don't come on the forums and try to portray that I'm not a thief, and regardless if I was trying impress upon you the true meaning of life, passed upon me by god himself, you're going to negate anything I say, solely because you know I play a thief. This however doesn't make the point any less valid, and I realize that most the people that will be replying to this post are those that have time to do so, while their character idle's inside of a harm-free zone.
 

milkyteat

Expert
"Yes, my point of view may be skewed by the fact that two of my six characters are thieves, but that doesn't make the point any less valid."

Stopped reading right there. Quit being lazy and make a pvp or pvm char.
 
Real theives steal in dungeons. I had a dude run up disarm my red and steal my weapon and start attacking me with a dp kryss. That's a theif. You are just a crybaby town theif.
 

Messremb

Grandmaster
"Yes, my point of view may be skewed by the fact that two of my six characters are thieves, but that doesn't make the point any less valid."

Stopped reading right there. Quit being lazy and make a pvp or pvm char.

Or stop being a bad thief! I watched you get G-Wacked on both your thieves stealing regs off my tamer.

Talk to drake Maybe he will show you the ropes just to get you to stop crying.
 

Struan

Expert
Killing additional players pose no further risk to PKs..... Except death and possibly stat loss. Oh..but not the level of risk of a naked town thief.

What is ironic is a thief that practices his trade free of risk rambling on about how "trammie" it is to have protected zones because all the other players should have to the risk?

I don't care that you play a thief. For me the foundational idea of UO is risk vs reward, particularly with criminal behavior. Pointing to other aspects of the game that also might lack balance is not an argument. I'd love to see the economy changed to get the manipulators etc fixed. Insider trading charges and some time in jail with the town thieves sounds good to me.

I actually like dungeon thieves and disarm thieves. I think they are ballsy. I like PKs also, granted I don't like being killed but it makes the game risky. A key component. Its risky for them and its risky for me. Mostly seems risky for me but that's because my kung fu is weak. Soon as I learn the Dim mak they are F*ed.

Town thieves take no risk. Wasting time is not a risk. Neither is people knowing your name. You just talked about all the points you had to spend hiding and stealthing. Naked and guard whacked is no risk of loss. Now that is trammel...all reward..no risk.

So you're an expert on the original game design and mechanics. Are double accounts logged in simultaneously part of the original vision?

How about double stealing or insta banking after a steal?

But you don't do those, do you...because you are all about the spirit of the game and not taking advantage of apparent loop holes.

PS - Wow..from god to you..to the rest of us. Really, are you sure? Cause i just PM'd him. That's right, he plays UOF and he thinks you're lame.
 

Antelope

Apprentice
The Docks are 100% Trammel, remove that shit.

This. There really shouldn't be "Safe" zones in UO. That is the whole point of Uo. Even Lord British was killed at one point.

THis is coming from someone who doesn't have a thief or PK , and in general doesn't enjoy being stolen from or killed.
 

KooZa

Novice
I just started using the forums for trading a week or two ago and the first person said "ill be at the docks." In my head I was like wut? So I went to the docks thinking it would be a non-stealing zone.... I go to docks use skill steal and boom, I was right, can't steal.... Then I saw someone say bank... and I was like you gotta be fking kidding me, YOU DONT EVEN NEED TO RUN THE ITEM HERE? Theres a god damned bank.... I was quite upset upon learning about this safe zone. Although it makes trading easy, it takes away from what UO really is. It's supposed to be that SLIM possibility that someone has been stalking your every move for at least 30 minutes of their life just for that one opportunity they have to make a break for it. I played a HIGHLY successful thief on Divinity, and created one here... I gotta say though, between not being able to stealth on a mount and all this trammy zone/blessed bullcrap I dont play him much... maybe if I need to do some recon, but thats it. No stealing.
 

Spinnacus

Neophyte
Killing additional players pose no further risk to PKs..... Except death and possibly stat loss. Oh..but not the level of risk of a naked town thief.
Death is temporary until they are resurrected, stat loss is temporary and they come back. As you stated, it's just wasted time, which really is no risk. They don't get "Jail time". I'm not sure if you noticed this, but there are almost no games out there where character death is permanent.

What is ironic is a thief that practices his trade free of risk rambling on about how "trammie" it is to have protected zones because all the other players should have to the risk?
What risk do you take when you kill a monster to get an item? You can get killed, waste some time until you rez, and go back and keep trying until you kill the monster, then collect a reward. A thief has to find a player, risk getting killed just the same, waste some time until they rez, and keep trying until they succeed and get a reward. The only difference is you collect the reward from a non-thinking monster that can't bank or store their expensive prize, to where a thief has to find someone careless enough to walk around outside of a safe area with it.

I don't care that you play a thief. For me the foundational idea of UO is risk vs reward, particularly with criminal behavior. Pointing to other aspects of the game that also might lack balance is not an argument. I'd love to see the economy changed to get the manipulators etc fixed. Insider trading charges and some time in jail with the town thieves sounds good to me.
See your other comments, and then re-read what you just wrote. So far just about every comment has been directed solely at the hate for me or thieves in general, when this post and it's point is not about thieving, it's about a custom aspect of this game that was created in direct defiance of the advertised design of this server. I literally was flipping around one day and seen a video advertisement for UOForever that
boasted thieving and no Felluca. Why then, would the admins be so verbose about how much they hate thieves and script against them. The differences between Trammel and Felluca were pretty much cut down the like of PVP/Looting Corpses/Criminal Acts (such as thieving).

I actually like dungeon thieves and disarm thieves. I think they are ballsy. I like PKs also, granted I don't like being killed but it makes the game risky. A key component. Its risky for them and its risky for me. Mostly seems risky for me but that's because my kung fu is weak. Soon as I learn the Dim mak they are F*ed.
I agree, there are various types of thieves in the game, some don't even use snooping and stealing. Someone who scams a player to trade at a house, then pk's them and takes their stuff is basically a thief too. A player who sells an item for 4 times its value to someone who doesn't know any better... also a thief. After a thief steals an item, he has to get away with it. From the moment he takes the item from your bag, he inherits all the risk that that the original player had and slightly more, because he is gray and they don't get punished for killing him.

Town thieves take no risk. Wasting time is not a risk. Neither is people knowing your name. You just talked about all the points you had to spend hiding and stealthing. Naked and guard whacked is no risk of loss. Now that is trammel...all reward..no risk.
You just said that "death" and "stat loss" are risks for a PK. Why is a PK's "Death" a risk, but a thief's not? The reds typically run with their blue alts nearby or friends. They kill you, take everything not blessed, and get away with it. The risk, is that they die and waste some time. Not much different on the risk side, but the reward seems to be far better.

So you're an expert on the original game design and mechanics. Are double accounts logged in simultaneously part of the original vision?
I have 2 characters with the same name, and admittedly, yes I sometimes can control both, but one at a time, because they are on two diffent computers/keyboards/mice/desks. My brother/roommate, often will play on the second account. Often the second account will be crafting or just afk and invisible in his house. I often partner up with other thieves, 2 to 4 in a group while we assist in distracting and stealing. I've had other players assume the other people around were me, but I assure you unless it was Spinnacus/Spinnocus it wasn't, and about 40% of the time, Spinnocus is my brother.

How about double stealing or insta banking after a steal?
How about reds that kill and hand off items to their blues/friends/guildmates to bank. Why is 2 thieves working together any different than 2 reds or 2 blues working together?

But you don't do those, do you...because you are all about the spirit of the game and not taking advantage of apparent loop holes.
You stated that me being a thief is not your concern, however every response you and everyone else have had, is purely about me being a thief. The idea being posted here is about the fact that a server that supports and even advertised theiving and the lack of Trammel, has created a zone that is exactly like trammel. The fact that this area exists, eliminates all risk of being taken by "town thieves" or even PK's and Thieves outside of town, as the players will not have to travel outside of safe areas to sell, trade the items. If the design and idea is to not have thieves steal in town, they would not have put a guard and criminal system in the game, they would have just scripted the towns to be exactly like the docks... but that would make the game exactly like... Trammel

PS - Wow..from god to you..to the rest of us. Really, are you sure? Cause i just PM'd him. That's right, he plays UOF and he thinks you're lame.
I appreciate you for proving my exact point. I did not say that god gave me his infinite wisdom to spread to you, I said that IF he did, you all would ignore it, not because the information is bad, but because you dislike the messenger. By-the-way, I'm 99% athiest 1% agnostic (just in-case).


Just as many reds play for the sole satisfaction of killing players over and over, and rezzing the victim, just to kill them again, often not even looting the body... some thieves just steal for the satisfaction of it. I can tell you that stealing a single bandage from someone often gets the same reaction as stealing a power scroll. This is a game, thieving was DESIGNED in to the same list of skills that you used to make your tamer, crafter, or metrosexual town afker. I'm not making a rediculous off the wall point here. If the video I seen that drew me in to playing on this server said "Classic UO", "Limited Thieving", "No Trammel Except the Docks"... then all my points would be moot.

I enjoy playing on this server as it is. I've donated to the server because I have enjoyed it so much. I play other characters that are not thieves. I've made agreements and pacts with other players to not steal from them or their vendors, and honor my agreements. I've given back items I've stolen just because the player acted calm and laughed it off. I've let other thieves that worked with me have house deeds and other expensive items I've stolen, even though I did all the work. I've had friends join the game, who don't play as thieves and assisted new players out that I do not even know. I work around issues and obstacles that get set in my way and enjoy the challenge. I simply play the game as it most entertains me, as I'm sure you do.

I, as a member of the community, as hated as I may be, am simply and politely voicing my opinion and suggestion. I could have made my forum name something that you all wouldn't have recognized as any player within the game, and you would then have had zero arguments to this matter. I'm glad you all have made such valid points instead of personal attacks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Struan

Expert
Spinnacus,

Wow. That is almost to long to read...i'll take a shot a response. Hopefully it'll be a bit shorter.

Your First point = death and stat loss are no risk.
Ok so following your logic. Stat loss and death are no risk. Then the only difference I see is loot/gear. That must be the loss/risk. Town thieves carry no loot/items. So again town thief = no risk. PVM, PVP and PK = risk.

Second Point - PVM = no risk.
See above. All you did was say the same thing but directed specifically at PVM.

Third Point - I hate thieves..or you..or your thieves
I really don't care about/hate thieves, you or your thieves. What I don't like is town thieves having very limited consequence to their actions in comparison to PVM, PVP and PK. I do not see a naked thief dying and sitting in town waiting to rez as being the same level of risk as other active roles play. I just don't. A PVM that dies and losses gear and maybe pets and goes and has to reup pots, gear, weap etc is putting a lot more at risk than a hidden town thief who steals and insta banks someone's stuff.

I didn't say remove thieving. I said they need to provide balance ie consequence for the criminal acts. You say stat loss is no loss/risk, so what would be the issue with giving thieves stat loss then?

4) Types of Thieves -scamming etc
I do not agree with scamming. Lots of people here think it is part of the game, some even encourage it. I thin it stinks. The UOF terms of use state excessive scamming is prohibited. However it appears that is not enforced.

Dungeon thieves and disarm thieves are taking a similar risk to PVM and PVP unless they doing it naked. Then they are just a lost town thief.

5)PK death vs Thief death
See up a few. Again it might be a grey area but I attribute the loss a PK, PVM or PVP takes (ir all their shit being taken) is a MUCH greater loss than a naked town thief.

6) Loopholes, game vision etc
Ok so you openly admit to using functions available here that I would say were pretty clearly are not part of the original game vision or mechanics. You take a tone that down plays the actions. This is the same post where you spout on about the abhorrent violation of game vision that is the docks. It does not appear to me that you defend the spirit of the game by your own actions. This fact should make you a little embarrassed for using that same ideal that you violate as an argument in your favor. Feel shame.

7) The thief discussion as a representative vehicle ie : not my concern about your thief
I think maybe you are a little paranoid. Is everyone, including admin, really against you?

Yes this conversation used town thieves as a specific point of discussion but the underlying topic was imbalance. You think the docks create an unfair area which does not represent balanced gameplay. Why did the devs create it? I'm going to guess because they also felt that town thieves were OP, so they had to make a choice:

1)Create an area where people are safe to trade .
2)Come up with some most likely hotly contested significantly more complicated way to nerf or adjust thieving in town.

They are busy so they went with option 1. I certainly agree that it is not in line with the "vision" of the original game but I would venture neither is double stealing or insta banking.

So please don't misunderstand me. I really don't care about YOUR thief. My points were to try to bring attention to what I believe is an imbalance in the risk/reward. There are others for sure. You pointed to several others in an attempt to justify the current situation regarding town thief loss/risk. I don't see the "ya but they are doing it too" as a good choice to justify the current state of town thieves.


8) God, atheism and personal attacks
I am also atheist. That is why I can make jokes about god. So I made you point for you. Really how?

The PM joke about god was humor and a shot at the enormous arrogance that would be required to equate being a prophet of divine wisdom and arguing about a video game. Adding an if is semantics. And no I didn't miss it, I saw it for the poorly secured noose it was.

Personal attacks. I am sorry I called you lame..it was part of the god joke. I only think drawing an equivalency between PVM,PK,PVP and town thieves regarding risk/reward in an attempt to get aspects of the game changed to your advantage without accepting that your own position may be unfairly advantaged is lame. I'm sure you are super nice and really smart. Sometimes it's hard to get that across in text. You'll nail it next time.


Ok well that was supposed to be shorter, don't think it was. So here is the short version:

Give town thieves some level of stat loss and remove ista bank. THEN get rid of protected areas.
 
Top