Ludwig
Grandmaster
My apologies if I don't understand the reasoning behind this but maybe cut it down to 5-10 minutes or eliminate it completely? Is this due to the unintended bugged usage in pvp?
Reduce Talisman Death Cooldown?
- Thread starter Ludwig
- Start date
Bromista
Grandmaster
No, staff said it was so that there is risk to playing with the advantage of a talisman. Like skill loss for pets, it's meant to keep you from just hurling yourself into a situation over and over without penalty...unless you are willing to pay your tribute at the shrine every time of course.
I'm certain that it's here to stay I don't see it ever changing.
I'm certain that it's here to stay I don't see it ever changing.
kolbycrouch
Master
When the cooldown is up can you take the talisman off when you might die and re-equip it?
I feel the same way about it.
To say that the pet skill loss is comparable is nuts, you can gain skills back so easily.
Idk how many times I've seen a tamer die at a spawn or rda 10-15 times and just keep resing. They'll just go farm more mobs afterwards and get the skills back up. Their crazy pets are still insanely strong with a little skill loss, so you're killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
On a talisman character, you're either screwed or you have to very quickly pay 10k to reset it.
This isn't even considering the fact that max meta pets are just better than meta talismans, and tamers can also use provocation.
I think that the easiness of using pets should be all you get for grinding up the char. That alone is worth it to me when I'm using my tamer to farm.
I feel the same way about it.
To say that the pet skill loss is comparable is nuts, you can gain skills back so easily.
Idk how many times I've seen a tamer die at a spawn or rda 10-15 times and just keep resing. They'll just go farm more mobs afterwards and get the skills back up. Their crazy pets are still insanely strong with a little skill loss, so you're killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
On a talisman character, you're either screwed or you have to very quickly pay 10k to reset it.
This isn't even considering the fact that max meta pets are just better than meta talismans, and tamers can also use provocation.
I think that the easiness of using pets should be all you get for grinding up the char. That alone is worth it to me when I'm using my tamer to farm.
Cash is King
Grandmaster
Agree with the above points.
Dexxer cooldown should be reduced to 5 minutes which still accomplishes the gold sink goal for those who won't wait (like me) and doesn't screw over those not so well-off. It forces people to drop 15k with each death to avoid being much less effective for 15 minutes. At a champ or Arch Demon this amount of time is a lot.
A pet is rezzed and back in the fight (with a small skill loss so 98% as effective as it was originally) within 2-3 minutes.
A dexxer is rezzed and back in the fight within 2-3 minutes (presuming they get a rez from someone or are close to an ankh and gets all of their loot back). But they areless than 50% as effective and have to wait 12-15 minutes to regain full effectiveness.
Seems quite unbalanced.
I'm more concerned for those who don't have the excess money to pay the 15k all the time if they die multiple times at the same champ/RDA/idoc/Arch/Fafnir/etc.
Dexxer cooldown should be reduced to 5 minutes which still accomplishes the gold sink goal for those who won't wait (like me) and doesn't screw over those not so well-off. It forces people to drop 15k with each death to avoid being much less effective for 15 minutes. At a champ or Arch Demon this amount of time is a lot.
A pet is rezzed and back in the fight (with a small skill loss so 98% as effective as it was originally) within 2-3 minutes.
A dexxer is rezzed and back in the fight within 2-3 minutes (presuming they get a rez from someone or are close to an ankh and gets all of their loot back). But they areless than 50% as effective and have to wait 12-15 minutes to regain full effectiveness.
Seems quite unbalanced.
I'm more concerned for those who don't have the excess money to pay the 15k all the time if they die multiple times at the same champ/RDA/idoc/Arch/Fafnir/etc.
kolbycrouch
Master
Often the pets don't die because they are very tanky, and if only the tamer dies its no problem.
Consider the following:
Tamers need very little resources, so even if you can't get your body, no big deal.
Tamers can use provocation.
Tamers pets are stronger than talisman characters, and more well-rounded.
Tamers can trade their pets if they aren't satisfied with them ( I'm about to retire my meta mage that I've spent 9 mil on because I dont like it )
Tamers can die as much as they want and it doesn't give them a cooldown.
Tamers pets could die 100 times and still be very effective.
Tamers only need to kill monsters to gain skills on their pets again, something they would likely do anyway.
Yesterday when they spawned the RDA's at brit bank, I went into the wrong one ( minotaurs ) and was instantly killed.
I died a few times trying to get the regs/slayer book off my first body while I watched tamers die and res 100 times over again.
I finally just restocked, payed for the cooldown and went to the other RDA. By the time I got there I got a really low score on my lvl 8 meta mage with 3 relics all nearly maxxed. There was so many people that I didnt even make up the gold I spent on the cooldown.
All this while I watch meta tamers die 100 times with only a handful of regs on them, and push through to get most of the highest scores in the RDA. If they loot 1 gold stack they are likely ahead. if they die 100 times no biggie, because you only need like 30 each reg and a few bandages.
On the flip side of this I could have been playing a defense dexxer, lost 25k+ worth of armor/wep and then had to pay 10k to the stone? Just for dying 1 time?
It seems right now that meta tamers are so grossly overpowered compared to talisman chars that it's not worth grinding a talisman char.
I say this after trying meta tamer, defense tali and almost finished meta mage tali. I really regret wasting my time on the mage. I traded in my lvl 5 meta with 2 relics to get a head start on the meta-mage relics and now that I realize I don't like the char ( because it isnt as strong as a lvl 5 meta tamer ) I can't do anything with it because you can't trade them. I might dabble with a new dragon in the distant future, but for right now I'm done with these custom characters. Unless some of these things are addressed i'll just go back to provo-archer and chalk it up as a colossal waste of time.
Consider the following:
Tamers need very little resources, so even if you can't get your body, no big deal.
Tamers can use provocation.
Tamers pets are stronger than talisman characters, and more well-rounded.
Tamers can trade their pets if they aren't satisfied with them ( I'm about to retire my meta mage that I've spent 9 mil on because I dont like it )
Tamers can die as much as they want and it doesn't give them a cooldown.
Tamers pets could die 100 times and still be very effective.
Tamers only need to kill monsters to gain skills on their pets again, something they would likely do anyway.
Yesterday when they spawned the RDA's at brit bank, I went into the wrong one ( minotaurs ) and was instantly killed.
I died a few times trying to get the regs/slayer book off my first body while I watched tamers die and res 100 times over again.
I finally just restocked, payed for the cooldown and went to the other RDA. By the time I got there I got a really low score on my lvl 8 meta mage with 3 relics all nearly maxxed. There was so many people that I didnt even make up the gold I spent on the cooldown.
All this while I watch meta tamers die 100 times with only a handful of regs on them, and push through to get most of the highest scores in the RDA. If they loot 1 gold stack they are likely ahead. if they die 100 times no biggie, because you only need like 30 each reg and a few bandages.
On the flip side of this I could have been playing a defense dexxer, lost 25k+ worth of armor/wep and then had to pay 10k to the stone? Just for dying 1 time?
It seems right now that meta tamers are so grossly overpowered compared to talisman chars that it's not worth grinding a talisman char.
I say this after trying meta tamer, defense tali and almost finished meta mage tali. I really regret wasting my time on the mage. I traded in my lvl 5 meta with 2 relics to get a head start on the meta-mage relics and now that I realize I don't like the char ( because it isnt as strong as a lvl 5 meta tamer ) I can't do anything with it because you can't trade them. I might dabble with a new dragon in the distant future, but for right now I'm done with these custom characters. Unless some of these things are addressed i'll just go back to provo-archer and chalk it up as a colossal waste of time.
Lexington
Grandmaster
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but the cool down was Shane's idea. He told me it was to prevent a character who owns two or more talismans from switching back and forth thus having instant benefits of which ever was equipped.
kolbycrouch
Master
Then just implement a mechanics that makes it impossible to switch talismans without having a cooldown for switching them.
Like you can just put the last one you had on as soon as you res but if you switch it tells you that the next one isn't prepared yet.
Lexington
Grandmaster
That would make me happy but, I think because there's the option to spend 10k to buy your way back, you'll not likely see anything change.
Bromista
Grandmaster
I'm in full-on cynicism mode right now so hold on to your fuckin' britches:
You know that sort of thing is already in place, right? If you drag your talisman from it's slot on your paperdoll even a little (easily done by carelessly double-clicking to open the tali GUMP, I might add) you have to wait for the cooldown as though you have just died. But you didn't die. All you had to do is move it enough to hear the dragging sound.
As previously stated, the reason for the cooldown was maybe like .02% for swapping and 99.98% to promote players being held accountable for their mistakes.
There have been so many terrible arguments I'm not going to address them all, but I will give you guys this:
Right now there is no stat loss for pets. I'm sure it's coming back. Staff said it would be back. It had better come back, or the talisman cooldown had better disappear. But for now there is no long-term penalty for throwing your pets at spawn over and over as long as you are content to spend the time ressing and vetting. Tamers now have an advantage over talismans in that regard as they have a near total lack of accountability, while talisman mechanics have remained untouched.
Accountability is fine by the way, jesus christ. I know it's 2017 and UO is important to you but it's not so important to you that you want to spend any amount of time correcting a mistake you made in a video game so what the fucking fuck are you doing shitting up the forums with your requests to make the game only just a tiny bit easier for yourselves by way of complete removal of a deliberate penalty mechanic. Don't spend that time getting better or wiser, whatever you do.
That you can even buy your way out of the cooldown is gracious enough. If you choose to wait it out you can still gain XP but of course you don't get your relics. Of course not.
Have you guys used a leveled tali char with relics? Shit is unreal. With great power comes minimal responsibility and you guys can't hang, my god...
You know that sort of thing is already in place, right? If you drag your talisman from it's slot on your paperdoll even a little (easily done by carelessly double-clicking to open the tali GUMP, I might add) you have to wait for the cooldown as though you have just died. But you didn't die. All you had to do is move it enough to hear the dragging sound.
As previously stated, the reason for the cooldown was maybe like .02% for swapping and 99.98% to promote players being held accountable for their mistakes.
There have been so many terrible arguments I'm not going to address them all, but I will give you guys this:
Right now there is no stat loss for pets. I'm sure it's coming back. Staff said it would be back. It had better come back, or the talisman cooldown had better disappear. But for now there is no long-term penalty for throwing your pets at spawn over and over as long as you are content to spend the time ressing and vetting. Tamers now have an advantage over talismans in that regard as they have a near total lack of accountability, while talisman mechanics have remained untouched.
Accountability is fine by the way, jesus christ. I know it's 2017 and UO is important to you but it's not so important to you that you want to spend any amount of time correcting a mistake you made in a video game so what the fucking fuck are you doing shitting up the forums with your requests to make the game only just a tiny bit easier for yourselves by way of complete removal of a deliberate penalty mechanic. Don't spend that time getting better or wiser, whatever you do.
That you can even buy your way out of the cooldown is gracious enough. If you choose to wait it out you can still gain XP but of course you don't get your relics. Of course not.
Have you guys used a leveled tali char with relics? Shit is unreal. With great power comes minimal responsibility and you guys can't hang, my god...
Bromista
Grandmaster
My. god.
Dulcinea
Grandmaster
I don't know, I am quiet confused. I get the points about the talismans and disagree and agree with a few of the points. However, how can you compare a meta mage/melee character to a tamer? To me, that would be like comparing oranges and apples. I get how strong a tamer is, but that is the point of them. Except why is there so much hatred about tamers? (Rhetorical, I don't want to derail the thread). Play what you like and stop comparing it to other templates...
Having the cool-down on the talisman is a little long, yes, but definitely needs to be implemented because there is no other risk to having one. For example, when you die, yes the talisman is on a timed delay, except you don't lose experience when you die or skills, and when you equip the talisman, you can still gain talisman experience (relic xp is still on same delay). Additionally, once you get back into battle, you don't even notice the cool-down, from my experiences. Pay a little bit, brings the idea of risk versus reward...
Having the cool-down on the talisman is a little long, yes, but definitely needs to be implemented because there is no other risk to having one. For example, when you die, yes the talisman is on a timed delay, except you don't lose experience when you die or skills, and when you equip the talisman, you can still gain talisman experience (relic xp is still on same delay). Additionally, once you get back into battle, you don't even notice the cool-down, from my experiences. Pay a little bit, brings the idea of risk versus reward...
Bromista
Grandmaster
Tamers get a lot of heat, they always have. It made more sense back in the day, it makes much less sense now. About 25-30% of end-game content such as dungeon bosses, RDA bosses, and champs are now not friendly to tamers and encourage talisman use. Please don't castrate me this is a rough guess. More doors are open for non-tamers than ever before, but there's still plenty of times a tamer is best. If you're serious, you'll do both. I mean, you would think the smart thing to do here instead of complain would be to make a tamer. Takes a slow player 50 hours. To me, that sounds better than spending any amount of time on a provo archer.
Oh but there's the investment of end-game pets. It costs a lot to have a pimpin' tamer, right? It costs a fair bit of coin to max a tali too, but people will always be quick to suggest them to new-ish players. Why? Because the barrier to entry is absolutely lower and the bang for the buck is overall pretty good, right?
In my eyes that's all the more reason for a penalty of some significance to be placed on a player who uses their talisman irresponsibly.
See it came around full circle I'm not going Babethoven on y'all, have no fears
Oh but there's the investment of end-game pets. It costs a lot to have a pimpin' tamer, right? It costs a fair bit of coin to max a tali too, but people will always be quick to suggest them to new-ish players. Why? Because the barrier to entry is absolutely lower and the bang for the buck is overall pretty good, right?
In my eyes that's all the more reason for a penalty of some significance to be placed on a player who uses their talisman irresponsibly.
See it came around full circle I'm not going Babethoven on y'all, have no fears
Bromista
Grandmaster
Seriously a nice chunk of the desirable "end-game" shit is not friendly to tamers. Talismans are powerful. Talisman use is being encouraged and rewarded. Talisman users need to pump the brakes or pay the price and 10 mins/10k is the fucking sweet spot it really is.
kolbycrouch
Master
I'm guessing you've never used a talisman character or are just highly invested in your tamer.
Other than not having a summoning ball or something dumb like that, there is 0 penalty for making mistakes on a tamer other than an almost irrelevant skill loss ( I have a tamer so I know ) that isn't turned on right now anyways.
I have a lvl 9 meta mage talisman with 3 relics, shadow at lvl 10, and using a dragon/ww is more effective and takes less effort at almost anything were pets are viable.
I've spent plenty of time the past couple months leveling the talisman and have spent 9 mil for relics.
I can take a crappy provo archer to a champ spawn and use a macro that does literally everything for me, and get a higher score than I can on my mage.
I can take that same character or a tamer with non-meta pets, and out-farm my mage when grinding gold by probably 2x, Not to mention fight stronger monsters with potentially better rewards ( lvl 6 chest etc )
On content where pets aren't viable, I can take an archer and get a similar/sufficient score with 0 risk of penalty for mistake. You can die 1000 times and as long as your score is high enough, it won't matter.
There is nothing on the mage that I can complete that I can't do with a character that costs almost nothing to grind and takes no time. And for much of it, the mage isn't even phenomenally stronger.
Maybe with all the relics, the defense or zerker talisman can be so tanky, or dish out so much damage that it's just worth the risk. On the mage though, it's just not really better overall than a simple tamer or a provo archer, yet it cost me 9 mil and tons of grinding after that.
The taming grind is really not that terrible, and pet relics aren't crazy expensive. Talismans are worse to grind than a meta pet, trust me I've done both. There is no reason why one meta pvm template should be "better" overall than the other. They should all have different strengths/weaknesses at different content, and have different goals ( tanking/dps ). Taming seems to have a niche at being well-rounded, being tanky and having dps.
Taming was overpowered in this era of UO originally, there is no significant reason to make it like that here, other than to emulate that. having to spend a week grinding the skill is nothing compared to all the grind that ANY meta ( pet or talisman ) takes to max out, and that's the only excuse I've heard for why It's so much stronger.
Then you have the "just use a tamer" excuse. Well that would be fine, it's just the way that the server seems to advertise the META content implies that all the options are fairly equal but just have different play-styles. This is objectively not the case.
Other than not having a summoning ball or something dumb like that, there is 0 penalty for making mistakes on a tamer other than an almost irrelevant skill loss ( I have a tamer so I know ) that isn't turned on right now anyways.
I have a lvl 9 meta mage talisman with 3 relics, shadow at lvl 10, and using a dragon/ww is more effective and takes less effort at almost anything were pets are viable.
I've spent plenty of time the past couple months leveling the talisman and have spent 9 mil for relics.
I can take a crappy provo archer to a champ spawn and use a macro that does literally everything for me, and get a higher score than I can on my mage.
I can take that same character or a tamer with non-meta pets, and out-farm my mage when grinding gold by probably 2x, Not to mention fight stronger monsters with potentially better rewards ( lvl 6 chest etc )
On content where pets aren't viable, I can take an archer and get a similar/sufficient score with 0 risk of penalty for mistake. You can die 1000 times and as long as your score is high enough, it won't matter.
There is nothing on the mage that I can complete that I can't do with a character that costs almost nothing to grind and takes no time. And for much of it, the mage isn't even phenomenally stronger.
Maybe with all the relics, the defense or zerker talisman can be so tanky, or dish out so much damage that it's just worth the risk. On the mage though, it's just not really better overall than a simple tamer or a provo archer, yet it cost me 9 mil and tons of grinding after that.
The taming grind is really not that terrible, and pet relics aren't crazy expensive. Talismans are worse to grind than a meta pet, trust me I've done both. There is no reason why one meta pvm template should be "better" overall than the other. They should all have different strengths/weaknesses at different content, and have different goals ( tanking/dps ). Taming seems to have a niche at being well-rounded, being tanky and having dps.
Taming was overpowered in this era of UO originally, there is no significant reason to make it like that here, other than to emulate that. having to spend a week grinding the skill is nothing compared to all the grind that ANY meta ( pet or talisman ) takes to max out, and that's the only excuse I've heard for why It's so much stronger.
Then you have the "just use a tamer" excuse. Well that would be fine, it's just the way that the server seems to advertise the META content implies that all the options are fairly equal but just have different play-styles. This is objectively not the case.
Lexington
Grandmaster
OMG… some of you need to shorten those posts. Most will never read those essays. 
Cash is King
Grandmaster
Agree there needs to be a downside to tali. The argument is to reduce the cooldown/downside, not remove it. 15 minutes is too long and puts you at a big disadvantage for getting score at arch/RDA/champs. You'll earn a hell of a lot less score for those 15 minutes without relic powers vs. the tamer whose pet has a slight drop in skills (whenever that's actually brought back) and is back in action after just 2-3 minutes.
Instead of relic abilities completely unusable after dying, why not have the relic abilities nerfed by half instead? This way you're somewhat useful until either the cooldown expires in 15 minutes or you pay the 15k. Seems like a reasonable middle-ground.
Instead of relic abilities completely unusable after dying, why not have the relic abilities nerfed by half instead? This way you're somewhat useful until either the cooldown expires in 15 minutes or you pay the 15k. Seems like a reasonable middle-ground.
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
Isn't the obvious solution that the timer is removed, and we receive a 2% xp statloss to our talisman instead for dying? Apples to apples right?
ducks for cover
ducks for cover
thestand
Grandmaster
I'm liking the idea of permanent stat loss for pets and talismans with the option to buy out instead of stat loss.
Have a gump that pops up when you equip the talisman or ress pets giving you the option to buy out or take the stat.
It would also be cool to make it a little more user friendly for when you check the talisman stats and accidently unequip the talisman for a split second...
Have a gump that pops up when you equip the talisman or ress pets giving you the option to buy out or take the stat.
It would also be cool to make it a little more user friendly for when you check the talisman stats and accidently unequip the talisman for a split second...
Lexington
Grandmaster
Shut your mouth....LOL!!
Lexington
Grandmaster
It's just a 15 minute timer... barely anything to worry about. Lets not give eppy any ideas that he'll twist into something that's worse and harder than what we have now. He's like that!