Kird
Adept
brilliant
love it
love it
IDOC changes are awesome
- Thread starter Kird
- Start date
Grug'Bug
Adept
i do love it also,
i do wish that maybe the timer on the ettin decay could be increased though
i do wish that maybe the timer on the ettin decay could be increased though
the stever
Master
What are the mobs like? Are there difficult mobs? Does it seem like there are more mobs based on amount of stuff?
Swayze
Grandmaster
Ettins
Current IDOC changes are just the first STAGE of things to come with IDOCS falling. Every idoc fallen will basically be an event on it's own.
We want to make it a lot of fun, challenging, and worth everyones time.
We want to make it a lot of fun, challenging, and worth everyones time.
Cash is King
Grandmaster
I hate this idea.
I appreciate staff making changes and being nimble and hate to be a negative Nancy want to voice my opinion here.
idoc's have always been a stream of gameplay on uo that i loved and did for many years with many guilds. I'd say idoc'ing has comprised half of my uo career.
This further trammifies idoc's and pushes them to the edge of the cliff of being a relevant stream of gameplay.
The changes from the old timers to the new 6 hour idoc timer I can understand although most idoc'ers didn't like it because it meant 6 hours later you have to be available...which is unlikely unless you're unemployed. And timers were never perfect so your 2 hour window is really 6-8 hours from when you saw it idoc.
Then placement tool had a cool-down. Oh, and using a tool reveals you as well. So the underdog stealth idoc placer template/gameplay was completely ruined here (I enjoyed doing this a lot). So now if you are not in a huge guild there's almost no point in doing idoc's whatsoever anymore.
Then, the npc was implemented that gives people (essentially) free access to idoc's without putting in any work to locate/time them.
Now, this conversion of most items into monsters holding the loot makes idoc's 95% useless as a stream of gameplay (5% being those players who can place a house for profit).
There's no incentive left for guilds to put in work/time for idocs. Just pay 5k to the npc, wait for a drop and kill some ettins/trolls to hope for a chance at some random loot. Maybe you'll get that lute that from the roof, maybe you'll get the loaded chest full of power scrolls or maybe a piece of leather armor. Who knows and it doesn't matter if you protected the idoc for the last 4 hours, especially the wall with rares/chests. Instead, people will recall in and start going after the mobs to kill em for a chance in the lottery. Oh and good luck trying to pk/pvp with a few hundred ettins/trolls roaming around - that will be a shit show and much harder to coordinate. So pvp will also be less fun at idoc's.
I understand that some guilds have dominated idoc's and made a lot of money which is likely a motivating factor behind changing idoc's. Because then other people aren't as competitive as the bigger guilds and don't get a chance at making money off idoc's. Sounds like those people would need to make friends, join a guild and rally troops to be competitive... which are the foundations of what uo so great!
I operated as a solo idoc'er on previous shards and early on here (before all of the changes) and made a good amount of money. You didn't need a guild to win, you just need to be crafty and learn as you go. I stealth placed dozens of plots although they took that away too with the tool revealing you. Sigh.
Timing idoc's, protecting them with your guild and the associated pvp and looting is ...I mean was... a lot of fun. Not anymore.
What's next, participation trophies for all of those who attend?
/end rant
I'll give Shane the benefit of the doubt here since he says this is the first stage in an evolution to make idoc's more like events. I still don't like the idea at face value but hope i'm pleasantly surprised. Just please, make it so that items are not converted to loot on mobs, let the items drop as normal. Include mobs (challenging ones) for some action and excitement, sure. Having a harrower spawn under the sign at every idoc once it drops would be a great idea and accomplish the same thing without a lot of work/programming.
I appreciate staff making changes and being nimble and hate to be a negative Nancy want to voice my opinion here.
idoc's have always been a stream of gameplay on uo that i loved and did for many years with many guilds. I'd say idoc'ing has comprised half of my uo career.
This further trammifies idoc's and pushes them to the edge of the cliff of being a relevant stream of gameplay.
The changes from the old timers to the new 6 hour idoc timer I can understand although most idoc'ers didn't like it because it meant 6 hours later you have to be available...which is unlikely unless you're unemployed. And timers were never perfect so your 2 hour window is really 6-8 hours from when you saw it idoc.
Then placement tool had a cool-down. Oh, and using a tool reveals you as well. So the underdog stealth idoc placer template/gameplay was completely ruined here (I enjoyed doing this a lot). So now if you are not in a huge guild there's almost no point in doing idoc's whatsoever anymore.
Then, the npc was implemented that gives people (essentially) free access to idoc's without putting in any work to locate/time them.
Now, this conversion of most items into monsters holding the loot makes idoc's 95% useless as a stream of gameplay (5% being those players who can place a house for profit).
There's no incentive left for guilds to put in work/time for idocs. Just pay 5k to the npc, wait for a drop and kill some ettins/trolls to hope for a chance at some random loot. Maybe you'll get that lute that from the roof, maybe you'll get the loaded chest full of power scrolls or maybe a piece of leather armor. Who knows and it doesn't matter if you protected the idoc for the last 4 hours, especially the wall with rares/chests. Instead, people will recall in and start going after the mobs to kill em for a chance in the lottery. Oh and good luck trying to pk/pvp with a few hundred ettins/trolls roaming around - that will be a shit show and much harder to coordinate. So pvp will also be less fun at idoc's.
I understand that some guilds have dominated idoc's and made a lot of money which is likely a motivating factor behind changing idoc's. Because then other people aren't as competitive as the bigger guilds and don't get a chance at making money off idoc's. Sounds like those people would need to make friends, join a guild and rally troops to be competitive... which are the foundations of what uo so great!
I operated as a solo idoc'er on previous shards and early on here (before all of the changes) and made a good amount of money. You didn't need a guild to win, you just need to be crafty and learn as you go. I stealth placed dozens of plots although they took that away too with the tool revealing you. Sigh.
Timing idoc's, protecting them with your guild and the associated pvp and looting is ...I mean was... a lot of fun. Not anymore.
What's next, participation trophies for all of those who attend?
/end rant
I'll give Shane the benefit of the doubt here since he says this is the first stage in an evolution to make idoc's more like events. I still don't like the idea at face value but hope i'm pleasantly surprised. Just please, make it so that items are not converted to loot on mobs, let the items drop as normal. Include mobs (challenging ones) for some action and excitement, sure. Having a harrower spawn under the sign at every idoc once it drops would be a great idea and accomplish the same thing without a lot of work/programming.
SidX
Grandmaster
I have to agree with this perspective.. we have to realize that we can't control or resolve all issues that result from large guilds or groups/individuals who decide to devote their UO:F playtime to a particular area. In this case, we can all more or less agree that this change is the result of large IDOC guilds and PK zergs that essentially control much of the IDOC market. The thing is, that's the point of UO and the guild system. Houses were meant to fall when they went unattended. Likewise, guilds were meant to gain strength with size and become more dominant and powerful. The freedom to be whoever you want to be, and to grow into however powerful you can imagine, is why UO is such an incredible game..
The fantastic thing about UO is that where there is grief, and where there is hardship, and where there is pain.. it can always be countered with basic UO game mechanics. Are you fighting against a large guild? Join a competing guild or make your own and fight them off. Being stolen from constantly? Learn how to track and detect thieves, then kill them since thieves can't give counts. Is someone AFK griefing your shop? Lure some lichs or some spawn and have them killed. Trying to protect a shoreline IDOC but being PK'd non-stop? Build up a ship and blow the !$@# out of them with some cannonballs..
I have been a massive fan of UO:F for years and have played here since about 2014. However I have unfortunately seen a few times where large systems within the game were completely removed to try and resolve issues revolving around them "only benefitting a few". That seems to be the theme among much of these controversial changes.. things that only benefit a "select few" are completely removed to better benefit more people. But what happens is somewhat of a temporary fix until people realize things were better off before.. at least IMO.
Look at stealable rares-- although I agree that only a few people mainly gathered them and kept them a secret, removing the entire system altogether because of this has taken away a large organic aspect of UO that has been in the game for such a long time. Randomizing spawn timers or implementing a rotating rares system would have solved the problem. Don't keep the spots the same forever-- change them every month or so. Keep it fresh. That's why the same people camped them, because the spawn timers were predictable and the locations didn't change until eventually a new batch of rares was implemented.
Now with these IDOC changes, guilds that chose to build themselves around IDOC hunting are hurt. So what if they made millions? Guilds and IDOC hunters shouldn't be penalized because the values of items within an IDOC were essentially too high. Perhaps there were more reasons behind it, but that's my perspective. I play a thief when I hunt IDOCs and I roll solo.. just me, stealthing and trying to make some money. I get PK'd 90% of the time and eventually run out of the IDOC.. but I don't-- and can't-- complain.. because other people are just playing the game as it was intended-- strength in numbers and working together.
I'm not the biggest IDOC hunter but I see similarities here with the removal of stealable rares, which was what I did during 90% of my time here on UO:F. Stealable rares were removed and replaced with mob drops. Now IDOCs were changed to put all loot on mob drops. The moral of the story is that we can't solve the "only benefitting a few" issues by putting everything on mob drops. All that does is take away from the people who crafted characters and guilds specifically for rare hunting, or IDOC hunting, or whatever it is they did.. and shift it towards benefitting the general population instead. That's why Trammel was implemented. If anyone complains, there are other places you can go to and play a Tram ruleset. But this is Fel and it requires some testicles to survive!
TL;DR -- bring back original IDOCs
Cash is King
Grandmaster
TL;DR -- bring back original IDOCs
x100
the stever
Master
I think we should wait and see how this works out before shitting on it. I imagine Idoc hunters will adapt their methods.
the stever
Master
(Deleted duplicate post)
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
I think my biggest issue with they way it was before, was that people used scavenger, tagged a pile of items, ran over to pick up what they could, and bolted. This change disables scavengers, forces you to kill the mobs to earn the loot you are picking up. This also drags the pick up of that loot out a little longer, giving PK's more of a chance to PK, and resistance more of a chance to get in and stop the PK's. This change, putting stuff on piddly ettins does nothing but causes you to take more time to get the rare loot for free that previously you ran over with scavenger and picked up. The same rules apply - protect the champ, kill the spawn, take your stuff.
I'd personally love to see a change that increased the strength of the mobs that spawned, based on the total value of house & contents.. so that the biggest houses with the rarest items picked a mob like Balrons and spawned 30-40 of them. It'd be a shit show. but you'd have to work to get your 6 million item. My biggest issue with this idea is it really encourages tamers to be there when the house drops - and from that standpoint I don't think the game should only cater to tamers.
But the ettins I really like, because it disables scavenge looters - and forces people to pick the items up, giving thieves, and random people a change to snipe an item here and there, if they get lucky and it's on the mob they drop.
I'd personally love to see a change that increased the strength of the mobs that spawned, based on the total value of house & contents.. so that the biggest houses with the rarest items picked a mob like Balrons and spawned 30-40 of them. It'd be a shit show. but you'd have to work to get your 6 million item. My biggest issue with this idea is it really encourages tamers to be there when the house drops - and from that standpoint I don't think the game should only cater to tamers.
But the ettins I really like, because it disables scavenge looters - and forces people to pick the items up, giving thieves, and random people a change to snipe an item here and there, if they get lucky and it's on the mob they drop.
Cash is King
Grandmaster
The essence of my argument is that idoc hunters will no longer exist. Instead, people will pay 5k to an npc to get map coordinates for a house that will soon drop and spawn ettins/trolls that have the loot from the house on it and it's a lottery as to what you'll get.
Any long-time idoc'er knows that 75% of idoc's are mostly worthless. 15% are decent. 10% you'll make good money. These changes eliminate the "idoc'ing" stream of gameplay as the investment is now worth much less than it was before.
If you put in the time to scout the map for hours marking fairly worn houses, then track that house for 2-3 weeks as it progresses from fairly worn to greatly to getting a good idoc window (recalling thru books hundreds of times) - you have earned that loot. Paying 5k to an npc to get an idoc and then casting two ebolts to kill an ettin doesn't "earn" the loot more than that. And killing random mobs to just get what you get makes 'going for good items' impossible and changes it to luck of the draw.
It will not drag out pvp, it will make pvp annoying af and shitty compared to the epic battles that traditionally happen at idocs. Fights will still happen before the drop of course, and you can still 'protect' the idoc but when it drops and you have a bunch of ettins/trolls running around it will get silly.
I can sit by a wall and run and scavenge and item just as good as you or anyone else on the shard so that can't really be an argument.
Not trying to be rude but it sounds like you haven't done a lot of idoc's to understand the tactics and experience enough to understand why this is just way too much and ruining a classic uo experience.
Ultimately I feel that these changes are crossing a line and completely tampering with a classic uo experience and type of gameplay and forcing it to be something that it's not.
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Bromista
Grandmaster
I get your point. This change attracts no one and only has the power to turn people off by seriously altering a playstyle. Rare hunters come to mind.
This isn't half as bad as that change IMO because the classic find and wait tactic still apply here...well aside from the whole NPC thing but that's a different issue entirely and flat out shouldn't exist...I generally don't approve of changes that are increasingly leave things up to chance because that's lowest common denominator crap. People curate their playstyles for a reason and tampering with that definitely leads to hurt feelings. Chance is a part of UO but tweak things too far and you end up with kind of a slap the face to more than just current players...but prospective players as well.
I want to clarify that I'm maintaining this position despite never being into IDOCs or rare hunting all that much. Really...at all tbh. Pixel whore I definitely am, but I would rather farm and buy a) because it consistently works so long as people are selling the good shit and b) I can do it on my own time.
I want to further clarify that my approval or disapproval doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things, but I'm still trying my best to be objective because these things are important.
While we are on the subject I'm still waiting for wands to be removed along with literally 98.8% of the server and all feedback that they receive. What the heck is up with that? Like two players and one staffer are down with wands. Isn't it time to say the experiment failed?
This isn't half as bad as that change IMO because the classic find and wait tactic still apply here...well aside from the whole NPC thing but that's a different issue entirely and flat out shouldn't exist...I generally don't approve of changes that are increasingly leave things up to chance because that's lowest common denominator crap. People curate their playstyles for a reason and tampering with that definitely leads to hurt feelings. Chance is a part of UO but tweak things too far and you end up with kind of a slap the face to more than just current players...but prospective players as well.
I want to clarify that I'm maintaining this position despite never being into IDOCs or rare hunting all that much. Really...at all tbh. Pixel whore I definitely am, but I would rather farm and buy a) because it consistently works so long as people are selling the good shit and b) I can do it on my own time.
I want to further clarify that my approval or disapproval doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things, but I'm still trying my best to be objective because these things are important.
While we are on the subject I'm still waiting for wands to be removed along with literally 98.8% of the server and all feedback that they receive. What the heck is up with that? Like two players and one staffer are down with wands. Isn't it time to say the experiment failed?
AreYouKidden
Grandmaster
The NPC definitely has to go.. I agree on that..
Xiulan
Master
I think the changes are awesome, including the NPC, although it might be better if Norton came around to inspect buildings at random times (maybe once a week) instead of being parked there all the time. That way some idocs could still only be found by tracking or word of mouth, but we wouldn't wind up with the same group of scripters controlling every single idoc like we had before.
I like the ettins and how there's an element of chance now. I do think slightly tougher mobs would be better, but definitely not harrower and stuff like that. It's okay for there to be some things on this server that big guilds, high-end tamers and pk zergs don't dominate.
I never bothered with idocs until these changes went in, but I've done a few since and while I didn't get anything valuable it was still fun. Fun is really what it should be about, imo, not a guaranteed income stream for idocers.
I like the ettins and how there's an element of chance now. I do think slightly tougher mobs would be better, but definitely not harrower and stuff like that. It's okay for there to be some things on this server that big guilds, high-end tamers and pk zergs don't dominate.
I never bothered with idocs until these changes went in, but I've done a few since and while I didn't get anything valuable it was still fun. Fun is really what it should be about, imo, not a guaranteed income stream for idocers.
TrustyPatchez
Master
Nothing really wrong with wands.. Same principle as the removal of stealing rates. Wands just need to be tweaked so you can't gheal wand while fighting non factions. Not remove them entirely
Young Star
Grandmaster
spawn should be werewolves or revenant lions. Now that would be a glorious shit show at a castle IDOC.
I like that having the items on a mob prevents scavenging. There is still a little suspicion that some items don't make it through the conversion to mob loot.
From the few idocs that i have been to it makes it harder for one guild to completely lock down all the loot. Its plenty easy for someone to sneak up, recall, or gate in to snatch some loot from corpses and hit a gate or run and hide.
Change can often be tough to deal with. You cant please everyone. It is hard to guage whether to ignore constant complaints about a current mechanic or ignore all the complains when you change the mechanic. Same with determining if complaints are coming from the majority or a very vocal minority.
I am worried about bringing about too much change where you eventually lose more of the nostalgia of UO. Some of the charm of the game was that not everything was catered to the masses. There are many aspects of the game that are very different from each other and draw an assortment of players.
I like that having the items on a mob prevents scavenging. There is still a little suspicion that some items don't make it through the conversion to mob loot.
From the few idocs that i have been to it makes it harder for one guild to completely lock down all the loot. Its plenty easy for someone to sneak up, recall, or gate in to snatch some loot from corpses and hit a gate or run and hide.
Change can often be tough to deal with. You cant please everyone. It is hard to guage whether to ignore constant complaints about a current mechanic or ignore all the complains when you change the mechanic. Same with determining if complaints are coming from the majority or a very vocal minority.
I am worried about bringing about too much change where you eventually lose more of the nostalgia of UO. Some of the charm of the game was that not everything was catered to the masses. There are many aspects of the game that are very different from each other and draw an assortment of players.
Lord and Savior
Apprentice
Inb4 blues crying bc idocs get raided just like a champ.